Serious question about PADI

[armyscuba]

Go with what's local..A Dive shop that is friendly..Instructors that You can get a feel for. Don't worry about the Agency..Just get certified..have fun..then get a shot of brains on what to do in the future. Don't worry about DIR..don't worry about what everyone else is doing. Become a member of the SCUBA community. Then You ultimately will determine what's right for You.

 

[dweeb]

Not your peers? Are you not a citizen that can be impaneled on a jury? If you are, then by definition you are his peer. If not, that explains your incorrect notion about the federal land management systems in U.S.

What constitutes a peer, for purposes of jury impaneling, has been the subject of some interesting argument. Apparently, if you're a minority, 12 WASPs can't be your peers. Some scumbag had a successful appeal in California on the basis that registered voters were not his peers, because most lowlifes don't register to vote, so that state now pulls prospective jurors from drivers' license rolls instead of voter registrations. Funny though, I doubt it would work in reverse, say someone with a PhD appealing a conviction by 12 high school dropouts.

Anyway, since my state draws jurors from voter registration, and the state where OJ was convicted uses BMV records, they have differing definitions of what constitutes a peer, so no, not necessarily my peers.

 

[Lawman]

:lol: You're kidding, right? Maybe you should just try to speak for yourself...?

No, I'm not kidding and I always speak for myself.

 

[oceancrest67]

But that's what you get when you broaden the market. You can have either quantity of divers, or quality of divers.
The population as it stands will not willingly yield both.
I vote for quality, and I also believe that diving is enough of a blast that, even if the course is a longer and more challenging, people will do it because diving is worth the sacrifice. When I first saw people diving on Flipper, as a grade schooler, I decided that was something I would do in my life. For all I knew when I made that decision, if you'd told me I had to run a marathon, solve partial differential equations, and disarm a torpedo blindfolded in order to get to dive, I would have said, "OK, a lot of other people obviously did it, and I don't see any red and yellow 'S' on their chests, so, if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do." When the opportunity presented itself in college, I jumped at it, and it never once occurred to me that it was too hard, or not fun.

You know, people in Afghanistan don't whine and demand that everything be immediate, no-effort gratification. If our society can't muster a little more gumption, Al Quaeda will ultimately eat us for lunch.



You must dive in rarified circles. What I've seen, and some of the stats PADI's compiled (fewer than 10% of OW divers EVER take another class) the vast majority are just looking for the easiest route to getting into the water, and there are resorts throughout the tropics doing zero training trust me dives whose profits are testimony to that

Dweeb:

I grew up overseas. I have lived in parts of the Middle East and Europe...I have seen much. No, people in Afghanistan whine (legitimately) over having to dodge bullets and land mines for the past 20 years...they whine over not having things to make life a little easier...like clean running water (plumbing is still a BIG BIG luxury in most of Afghanistan), and access to a safe bazaar and market place to buy food and to trade. The people in Afghanistan would not mind a little immediacy in progress so that their children can go to school safely...if at all. Remember, the Taliban forbade education to girls / women...and so you have the extreme of authoritarian rule stifling growth and access to markets.

I do agree that (in the U.S.) we have wealth and access to things we take for granted...but not everyone takes things for granted. It is not totally quantity or totally quality...the market moves with all levels...individuals come in all shapes and sizes and abilities. It is just the way it is. It is not ideal, it is not pure...it is what it is.

Yes, I agree with you that quality matters more...For me, I try to improve my training and diving skills as much as possible when possible...but, I had to start somewhere and rise to the occasion over time. In the ten years I have been diving...it did take me a good while to build finesse and grace underwater...along with the certifications and continued education, I had to come into my own so to speak.

No, I do not dive in rarified circles (I am picky about who I dive with though)...I accept that people are different with different skill levels...that does not mean that I accept all or that I dive with all. You are correct in pointing out the problems with cattle boats...or with the resort programs for tourists.

I remain optimistic about the good of the market place...but, I also realize the negatives that come along with it. Those that seek immediate, instant gratification ultimately get what they pay for in more ways than one.

 

[dweeb]

I grew up overseas. I have lived in parts of the Middle East and Europe...I have seen much. No, people in Afghanistan whine (legitimately) over having to dodge bullets and land mines for the past 20 years

I wasn't talking about those people. I was talking about the people in the Al Quaeda training camps, who, instead of whining, have taken extreme action to further their goals. Of course their goals are evil, but they don't sit around waiting for someone else to solve what they perceive to be their problems.

You are correct in pointing out the problems with cattle boats...or with the resort programs for tourists.

Well, those resort programs are one of PADI's biggest sources of growth.

I remain optimistic about the good of the market place...but, I also realize the negatives that come along with it. Those that seek immediate, instant gratification ultimately get what they pay for in more ways than one.

But not necessarily before they spoil diving for the rest of us.

 

[neil]

But not necessarily before they spoil diving for the rest of us.

I've never considered that anyone could spoil diving for me. Maybe if they started dynamite fishing the California Channel Islands that would ruin it. In the meantime I dive when, where and with whom I want. I don't obsess about the less serious participants in the sport and I certainly don't give a horse's patoot about the folks who question my own level of commitment to it. Only you can spoil diving for you.

N

 

[dweeb]

You're not from this country, are you?
Federal lands are *managed* by the government for the good of the people, who's tax $s bought and maintain them (along with entrance fees where applicable). So the family of 4 who saved up for several years to take an auto tour of some of the great parks that the country has to offer are visiting THEIR land - not just land belonging to people in good shape with certain skills.
Hence, the notion of PUBLIC vs PRIVATE in this country.
Dweeb, tell me, you aren't suggesting that we take a little bit of EVERYONE's money to buy land, yet only let people who are skilled and in shape to visit the majority of it, are you?

I am an American, and I fully appreciate the ideals you're alluding to, but there's such a thing as carrying egalitarianism too far, especially when you start treating choices people make in life like immutable characteristics fate handed them.

But let's examine that principle a little. My tax dollars paid for Area 51, but I can't get in there without spending years in the Air Force and having some very esoteric skills. Same goes for many federal properties that my tax dollars paid for. I bet that quite a few people would get more of a kick out of watching the Aurora spy plane taxi and take off than they would from seeing Old Faithful. Given a choice between rafting the Grand Canyon and taking a a ride in an F-15, I think I'd choose the latter, but again, despite the fact that my tax dollars made both possible, some rather elitist barriers to entry deny me my preference. Personally, I have no problem with the prospect of having to hike 20 miles to see Halfdome. If ONLY it were that easy to see the missile room on a Trident sub, which as an engineer I'd appreciate just as much and which cost more of my tax dollars to have available than did Yosemite NP, if you count the full R&D costs.

What about the person born with a disability that makes it impossible to hike 7 miles to see a hanging lake - don't you think we should set aside some of our land and make it accessible for that person to enjoy what their tax dollars have set aside?

Not necessarily. It's a nice sentiment, but I don't think it's a moral imperative. Look, the fact that some people are disabled stinks. I feel for them, but I also know that society can't drop trump every practical consideration to facilitate some grand sense of denial that their condition is a diminished one. Spare me the PC platitudes here, but I don't see anyone standing in line to become disabled, but if science found a way for disabled people to become fully able bodied, they'd be clamoring for it. What if the funds used to make mountain huts and other such remote places ADA compliant were applied instead to research to repair damaged spinal cords? Who is to say that wouldn't do more good. We all face circumstances in life that close certain doors to us.

Unlike most, I have a great NP literally at my doorstep (my land borders RMNP). I know of no one in my area that take it for granted,

Then you have a naive view of your fellow citizens.

As for as easy come - how much taxes do you pay? None of the parks came either quick or easy - and everyone that visits them has helped pay for them long before they buy the entrance fee.

Most people don't miss that money because they never see it.
Because of withholding, most people are anesthetized to their true tax burden. Eliminate it, and make them actually write a quarterly or annual check, and see what happens.
Also, money is a different class of burden. With credit the way it is now, it's seen as easy come easy go - just tell them what the monthly payment is. PADI never said dive instruction should be cheap, just quick and easy.
(Isn't that how it is in prostitution, too?) When, at an Update, the PADI rep said, "We want to get everyone diving" I asked him, what about the poor? to which he responded, "Well, everyone who can pay." So much for that overdeveloped sense of egalitarianism.

 

[pipedope]

This thread has gone into repetition and into political discussion that is not proper on ScubaBoard.

Thread closed.