Should C-Cards Expire?

[ElectricZombie]

Basic C-Cards should not expire. (GUE cards are another matter.) This will not improve safety or lead to any benefits. Things are fine as they are. The average diver will not practice enough to become proficient. They will flounder through whatever skills are required without ever learning to do it properly. Nothing is accomplished, their skills will be of the same caliber with or without re-certification. What's the point? (Other than for PADI to make more $ by doing nothing.)

I am certainly not going to go get "checked out" by some moron DM or Instructor. Being a DM or Instructor doesn't mean anything in terms of skill or knowledge...they are usually the ones who are the biggest screw ups.

I don't have to prove my diving ability to anyone unless I choose to and neither should anyone else.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The comparison of a scuba re-certification to a biennial flight review is not entirely accurate.

A Biennial Flight Review is not required if you have a commerical license or if you have a private license and at least 700 hrs. total time. Similarly, if I pick up another rating (instrument rating, glider rating, multiengine rating etc, a BFR is not required as the extra training counts as the BFR.

A better answer would be to require divers to maintain currency. For example, in aviation a holder of an instrument does not require more instruction or additional check rides as long as they maintain a minimum number of instrument hours and approaches. If they fall below this, more flight time in a practice situation is required before flying in actual IFR conditions and if they get too far behind, more instruction and in extreme cases a check ride is required.

I am opposed to putting an expiration date on C-cards in general as at present divers can show currency with their log book and if a dive master or boat operator is not satisfied with their overall expereince or is concerned about a lack of recent experence, they can say "no" or limit them to easy and non demanding dives. I see no benefit to taking this responsibility and authority away from the DM and placing it in the hands of an insutructor or training agency who performs a review in conditions that may be far easier than the student would face in the real world.

But if c-card expiration happens, I'd prefer to see a mechanisim in place to allow a permanent exemption to the recert/review requirement due surpassing a certain total number of logged dives (100, 250, 500?) and an annual exemption based on a minimum number of dives in the last year (25 to 50). I would also like an exemption from review for another 12 to 24 months if the diver completes additonal training, even a specialty course, as long as it involves a check dive. A specialty course potentially isn't much but it gets the diver in the water with an instructor who can then determine if the diver is really out to lunch and recommend a refresher course if needed. These exemptions would prevent the active diver who maintains his skills or continues his training from being subject to a reveiw requirement that would teach the diver little or nothing.

 

[MudDog]

Expirations?

Absolutely not. People need to accept responsibility for themselves and know their own limitations.

A big difference here is that SCUBA is a *certification*, NOT a license. I too am a pilot and the biennial makes sense bkz my skills directly affect both my passengers and folks on the ground. While a case can be made for dive buddies and DMs being INDIRECTLY affected by a poorly trained diver, ultimately they are independent and have control over their lives as they are not required to ever jeopardize their own lives to assist.\

-MudDog

 

[MaresMan1]

I agree with most of what's been said in this post against the expiration of C cards. To me it would not solve the problem and would drive costs up.

On the other hand, you can read about all of the accidents that are happening, mostly from the OW and AOW group of divers. If a person is consistently diving, they should be getting better at the craft. When they aren't it can spell trouble.

So, how about using a sticker on the C card similar to vehicle registration sticker, to the last dive activity date. Make it inexpensive and only for divers with OW or AOW cards. This would alert shops to the divers activity and experience level and prompt the shop/instr/guide to request a refresher.

I know that this should be in your dive log, but I know that a lot of divers do not keep their logs up to date. Additionally, a lot of shops don't request logs. This method requires the shop to put a sticker on your card when getting gas. Doesn't solve all of the ills, but it could be a start. Just my .02 cents.

Dive Smart; Dive Safe
Enjoy the ride
:mean:

 

[Rick Murchison]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Instructors are a different matter. I think they should be periodically checked out. Their diving and teaching skill should be verified. As it is we just send in a check every year.

This is not so with SSI. SSI instructors must have a monitor who not only monitors the instructor's performance, but must report to SSI headquarters every year on that instructor's performance. The instructor must meet proficiency and standardization requirements to retain his/her rating.
Rick

 

[DA Aquamaster]

MaresMan1 once bubbled... This method requires the shop to put a sticker on your card when getting gas.[/B]

A magnetic strip on the card containing the information would be needed as otherwise active divers would end up with 50 stickers on their c-cards in short order. It also would do nothing for active divers with compressors or airclubs. And as you point out this whole process would do nothiong more than duplicate a log book entry which would provide far more information. If divers were not able to dive as their log books were not up to date, I suspect more would keep them up to date.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...

This is not so with SSI. SSI instructors must have a monitor who not only monitors the instructor's performance, but must report to SSI headquarters every year on that instructor's performance. The instructor must meet profociency and standardization requirements to retain his/her rating.
Rick

As I understand it, SSI instructors are required to teach through a shop though. That's something I probably won't ever do again. IMO, instruction being tied to equipment sales is a bad thing.

 

[Rick Murchison]

The reality of the Scuba situation in the United States is that C-Card requirements are strictly enforced not by law, but by industry standards and practice. It isn't the law (thank God!) that requires a C-card to get air and equipment, it is the market - largely (whether we like it or not) driven by the economic forces of tort. There is no law other than the laws of common sense and reasonable care (backed up by the wording in the seller's liability insurance policy) that drives whether one can dive.
The temptation to draw parallels to aviation for scuba is appropriate in training and in the practice of the sport. But regulation is a different matter entirely. In aviation it is a public safety issue - in other words, regulation of aviation is there to protect the public from the individual aviator and his equipment, and any protection of the aviator him/herself is driven not by any public interest in his/her safety per se, but as a requirement to ensure the non-pilot public doesn't suffer from the results of the actions of the pilot - so the pilot must be healthy, competent and dependable. This isn't the case with scuba. There is no compelling state interest in ensuring the competence of scuba divers any more than there is the competence of swimmers or backpackers.
It is perfectly legal in the US for a person to buy their own boat, a compressor, tanks, regulator, BC etc and go diving to their heart's content. It is none of my business (beyond a duty as a fellow human being to encourage that person to seek proper training - but I have no claim of authority over his/her actions), none of your business, and (especially) none of the government's business. I know there are those who espouse a public claim on private risk-taking, but here, at least, we have a principle of personal freedom instead. Even the freedom to be an idiot.
C-cards are a convenient way to show a diver has received the requisite training to meet industry standards for diving. If we want a frequency/experience/currency standard then we already have that - it's called a logbook. If we want a proficiency standard we already have that too. It's called the "scuba skills update" or the "check-out" dive. And while I for one would advocate a worldwide raising of the bar before initial certification, and encourage shops and boats to take steps to ensure the diving competence of their customers, I would not direct it.
Rick

 

[rjdiver]

This is all very interesting. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. Some folks have advised that OW and AOW should get re-certs, or stickers. I have seen some Instructors crashing into coral. Some recommend the number of dives. We were in Cozumel, trying to be friendly. My buddy asked a diver, new to the boat, if this was his first dive (meaning of the trip). He made sure that we knew that he had logged over 250 dives. He proceeded to show us that he is a bottom diver (dropped right to the bottom, sitting on coral, waiting for his wife to adjust all of her gear. Goes to show that cert-level and dives logged doesn't always show the level of diving.

I did have a several year hiatus, at one time, but I felt just as comfortable in the water as my last dive. Of course, I had reviewed my OW and AOW book on the plane to get to the dive destination. Since then, I have received my Rescue Diver. No time to go beyond that, now that I have a young son.

 

[scubasean]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...


A better answer would be to require divers to maintain currency. For example, in aviation a holder of an instrument does not require more instruction or additional check rides as long as they maintain a minimum number of instrument hours and approaches. If they fall below this, more flight time in a practice situation is required before flying in actual IFR conditions and if they get too far behind, more instruction and in extreme cases a check ride is required.

I disagree with requiring maintaining currency....In an airplane, the pilot is interacting with federally paid air traffice controllers who are trying to keep military, commercial, and private pilots from crashing into one another.

Scuba divers should either take the responsibility to be safe, or don't dive.
Fix the industry without gov't intervention.