Should I get a Spare Air?

[Warhammer]

I think some of you are missing the point of "spare" air. Spare air isn't intended to provide you with enough air to continue breathing normally as you ascend. Do you remember the Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent"? That's where Spear Air comes into play, if you run out of breath before you get there, you have 1 or 2.

 

[Mario S Caner]

Warhammer, you took the words right out of my mouth. How right you are on this one. When teaching the CESA a student is taught how to ascend from 20-30 feet directly to the surface at a rate no faster than 60 feet per minute. This is done with all the gear in place while exhaling continuously.... Amazing but it works.

Surely no one here is suggesting that while you can make it from 30, 40, 50, 60... I know of someone whom did it from 100ft (just to see) with one single breath, that you can't make it from 60 with the assistance of a Spare Air bottle!

Since recreational diving is no deco diving where a mandatory stop is not required, this amount of air should be more than sufficient.

I for one would rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. If for nothing else it offers peace of mind.

 

[DennisW]

I believe you have been given good advice about Spare Air. If I were to use either, I'd use a pony bottle. But, the stoke that I am, and I have been called a stroke at least once (notice, I'm kind of proud of it), I don't use either. I keep my equipment in good condition, I know where my buddy is and I am normally close enough to my buddy that he/she is useful, and I don't go into dark deep holes. Diving is fun and I enjoy it immensely, an extra thing to hang on to would make it less so. My $.02

 

[Iguana Don]

Would some of you please explain how you run out of air on a dive?

Your regulator is equiped with either a SPG or a computer or as some of you have said 2 computers. Please explain this to me as I have NEVER run out of air, I guess I just pay more attention to my gauges than most, after all that's what they are there for.

I can see using a pony bottle in a student application, but other than that I must be missing the point.

An don't tell me about the reg not working. Modern day regulators are by design not to fail in the out of air position but rather they free-flow when they fail. A frozen reg is another matter.

If you pay attention to your equipment, you will never have an out of air situtation.

ID

 

[Mario S Caner]

ID, it happens much more frequently than you think. In fact last year I wound up rescueing a guy whom was going through a different instructors advanced open water course. He had a computer as did his buddy, whom were confused and panicked when he ran out of air at 80 feet. His dive buddy swims upto me in the kelp beds and is totally freaked out, I swim over to him and he's got... oh about 150psi or so in his cylinder, just listening to all the pretty sounds his computer is making. I grab him and start ascending smartly, two or three breaths later he's dry... I use an integrated setup so I donated my primary, grabbed my Air Source and stopped at 15 feet for a few minutes... by then he was calm... too calm, almost spacey. I guess the stop let him reflect on the fact that he almost died a couple of minutes ago. His dive buddy surfaced, not with us but with another group of divers, because she didn't know what to do! Case in point, a routine, simple dive could have ended in tragedy because of the inexperience of two divers, and the lack of communication between them and the instructor. Though they both had upto date gear, and even computers, it doesn't help when the students don't belong in the water without proper supervision.

I still run into him every once in a while, he's thanked me several times and is quite lucky someone was diving on the boat, and in close proximity to them when the 'stuff' hit the fan.

 

[Iguana Don]

People in the water that have no busisness even near it, let alone under it.

Why even carry a gauge or spend the money on a computer if you aren't going to look at it. Maybe some sort of fashion statement or status symbol. You could be much more streamlined without them and probably not use as much air.

And a pony bottle or spare air is just a band aid for poor dive planning and poor skills. Except for as I stated above, in an instructors capacity or DM.

Your post also goes back to another topic some months ago, you said these were AOW students, how many dives probably not more than 10 I would guess. There ought to be some minimum number of dives before passing on to the next level.

One should have to prove their profiency at that level, not just that they are able to fork out $150. for the next class.

Sorry for ranting, I'll get off my soapbox now.

ID

 

[Warhammer]

I too have seen a diver just totally oblivious to what was about to happen to them. While on a group dive in Jamaica the DM/instructor was fiddling with something in a barrel sponge and most of the other divers were just gathered around him watching. My wife and I were just off from them doing our own thing, when all of sudden we see the DM taking one of the divers up. The rest of the group is right on their heels. We decide we better surface as well and see what happened. When we get to the surface the girl is explaining to the DM how she didn't want to interrupt what he was doing. That's all we heard. Later the DM told us her buddy pulled his fin and motioned that she was low on air, he looked at her gauges and saw she was down to 200PSI (we were at 92fsw), so he started up with her not wanting to risk her buddy having trouble with panic from her when she ran out of air, as she did before they got up. The sad thing was she told him she knew she was getting low, since she was watching her gauges like a hawk, and still didn't get his attention until she was almost dry, not wanting to interrupt!

During this same trip, on another dive, I got buddied with a guy who was fresh out of their OW class. I wasn't made aware of this by his instructor (also the DM for this dive), but honestly I should have asked. After we descended he immediately started having trouble with his buoyancy and was up and down like a cork. Not wanting to get too personal, at first I didn't interfere, I just watched him closely in case I had to grab him. Then finally I decided to intervene and adjust his buoyancy for him. All was well for 5 minutes or so, then I turned around and he was gone. I finally spotted him about 25' above me and fining like crazy in the opposite direction. I looked down and saw that he was trying to catch the rear DM, who had gotten side tracked from the group observing a nurse shark. So I calmly started making my way to him and caught him about the time he spilled himself, from above, onto the DM. It was a hilarious site to see him crash into the DM that way, but serious too. Anyway, after the DM recovered from the collision, he checked the guys SPG and he had only 150PSI left! I had checked his gauge just a couple of minutes before he disappeared and he had 1500PSI. I was amazed at how much air the guy had used so fast. Anyway, both the DM and I started up with him and he ran dry on the safety stop. He didn't panic though, which surprised me. It could have been worse, much worse, if he had ran out while he was frantically fining away from me. I learned a lot that day, and now I ask questions first, dive later.

 

[Thistle]

You shouldn't be speaking only about problems of the guys going for the first time. I personally experienced a strange relaxation during certain dives and I was so concentrated to see and listen to things around me that I sort of lost my sense of time. During the last night dive I had the sensation I've been there for I don't know how long and in fact there were only 15-20 min. I even get scared for the moment because I thought I was left behind...they were just around the corner. It was a one second sensation but sometimes it can get to you.
I do not know, never run out of air but I believe that is possible.
Other reason might be a mechanical one, the pieces are not put together well and you are losing air. If you are not aware you are in big trouble. That is the real danger, you go down, you do not check the reg because you are at the start of the dive and you are confident that there is enough in the tank and in the next moment there is no more air. Not to speak that the lack of experience will determine fear and therefore high consumption of air that might agravate the situation.
So dont' be too hard on them.
VV

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by Mario S Caner
Since recreational diving is no deco diving where a mandatory stop is not required, this amount of air should be more than sufficient.

Stop being so provincial Mario!!!

Recreational diving in Europe (BSAC in the UK, and FFESSM here in france) IS decompression diving.

The definition of technical diving that is prevalent in Europe at the moment is 'a dive involving more than one air mix, or a regulator exchange', (Diver magasine, some time early 2000)

So recreational diving includes,
Nitrox
Planned Decompression

Technical starts with:-
Planned reg changeing for different mix (does not include reg changeing for Pony use)
Accelerated Deco. and so on.......


The vast majority of divers in Europe that I have come across are part of a club, and as such will also be boathandlers, etc... rather than being paying dive 'customers'.

PADI is currently Illegal as a training organisation here in france, simply because the french government has decided that SCUBA as a sport should not be done in a comercial 'dive customer' manner, and that for safety, and general education they will impose their own standards (through FFESSM, the official certifying agency here who are CMAS affiliated) which do not allow people to qualify in less than about 30 contact hours (no CD-ROM instead of lectures!). Some modern PADI courses in the UK, using the CD ROM are taught in less than 15 contact hours (5 x 1 hour pool modules, 2 x 5 hours for Open water dives)

If you can read french, there is on the PADI Pros area of their website the PADI Europe Political news - read the April 2000 French issue to see what we are up against here!

This (French) insistance on their own training, is that the PADI system trains divers for diving that is significantly different from that done in Europe over the last 35-40 years, and they believe it insufficient to cope with the local conditions.

Everywhere is different. The American way isn't always the most appropriate. There are many O/W divers that I have come across that are in no way capable of safely diving under UK conditions, even though they were trained there.

Different strokes for different folks I guess!

Jon T

PS the new DSAT TecRec Deep course covers people to do the same diving as a CMAS *** diver (upto 50m with mandatory decompression IF I have translated from the french correctly)

 

[Mario S Caner]

Being provincial was certainly not my intention. I do not intend to alienate anyone here with the advice I give and the knowledge I share. Still, two facts remain:

• 70% of all certifications are issued through PADI. The percentage of certifications that are issued through other agencies that have similar philosophies regarding the definition of what constitues recreational dives vs technical dives, are I'm quite positive much-much higher.
• The diver asking the question, is a Southern California diver... Not one in France.

Again, we are truely global in reach, and I have to admit, I did not know what kind of standards/definitions CMAS has regarding the scope of 'recreational decompression diving'. But, I thank you for letting us all know. I'll make an effort to keep that in mind in the future.