Should OW certified divers be taken into a deep wreck? Overhead? Thread split

[wavethrash]

I mean this when I preface my comment With all Due Respect, but my humble opinion is that with an open water certification...irrespective of your instructor's and the guide's opinions, you had no business being inside that wreck either.

Confidence without proper training can be a killer.

Congratulations for making it back.

I agree now that I've started looking into the safety side of diving, and that's a major reason in why I joined the scubaboard forums. Coming into that dive, I didn't even know what I didn't know. Yes I was aware that a semi-enclosed space increases the normal dangers of diving, but I didn't, and still probably don't, understand the 'how' of that fully. The only confidence I had was that I knew if anything went wrong with myself, I could control myself to tap my guide who was always within arms reach to signal for help. I do respect that danger much more now, and plan to go on many, many more guided dives with PADI professionals, as well as ensuring I have proper certification before even thinking of attempting anything remotely similar. Thank you for your honesty though, I didn't come to this site for anything less.

boulderjohn; the interior was stripped of all non hull/walls (at least to an untrained eye), and the dive shop knew about my situation and also had me do 2 dives with their crew before the wreck. The wreck is also fairly new, and visibility was about 80', swimming inside stirred up very little silt, though I was able to navigate without kicking any floors/walls or bumping into them.

 

[Johnoly]

.... Whether it is a safe one for a diver without technical training depends upon other factors, such as entanglement hazards, restrictions, and silt.

And depth.

Being narc'd starts at different depths for different people. Don't know why but it starts to hit me about 110 - 115. If it's bad enough (spins) I just stop all movement and it clears in 10 seconds then I can start kicking again with no problems the rest of the dive. For reference I have almost 2000 dives and almost all are deeper than 90ft. But I can see how someone in a group with a preset plan would feel the need to push through it to keep pace with the group.

In cave diving{or all diving}, anyone can call the dive at anytime, for any reason. I've done it many times.
WaveThrash > Keep diving, Keep training, Keep reading....Lots of us have been down your path. Time heals & helps.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I look forward to the day when I feel I have enough training and experience to do this kind of dive. I'm a little shocked it is apparently so common. I've dived the Spiegel Grove, Eagle and Duane, but never inside any swim-throughs. It's been my understanding that the Vandenberg is even more challenging.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The thing even with these "clean" wrecks is that there is always something that could cause a problem for the untrained, poorly trained, or inattentive diver. It's been a few years now but Grove was originally down upside down, then on it's side, then flipped upright by a hurricane. Welded hatches break open, beams twist, etc.

The Vandenberg was a text book sinking more or less. But still stuff can happen as it hits the bottom. Plus the damn thing is made of metal that rusts and corrodes. At some point things are going to start collapsing and changing.

Even now think of the hazards a simple light fixture poses to a diver that loses buoyancy control and gets hung up on it. Couple that with the depth and a low on air situation and you have a dead diver within feet of several openings that they can't get to if they panic and don't stop to think. The guide who took untrained divers on a penetration might as well have handed them revolvers with one bullet and told them to spin the cylinder and pull the trigger.

 

[AdivingBel]

I look forward to the day when I feel I have enough training and experience to do this kind of dive. I'm a little shocked it is apparently so common. I've dived the Spiegel Grove, Eagle and Duane, but never inside any swim-throughs. It's been my understanding that the Vandenberg is even more challenging.

I admire your discipline. IMHO, making a well thought out decision and sticking to it is highly commendable. I dive those same wrecks and enjoy the swim throughs. Risk assesment is very personal. While I'm comfortable talking about how much I enjoy dropping in an accessible pilot house/bridge and peeping out the portholes, I would never encourage someone to dive outside their comfort zone to do the same. To me other than the handfull of black & white do's and don'ts, remaining in your comfort zone is most critical to safe diving. Inside the zone is "zen." Outside, crap happens too fast and danger abounds. I'm sure when/if you feel the urge to push the envelope (not necessarily swim throughs, but any diving envelope) you'll do it in a considered, well thought out manner. At least from reading your posts, that would be my bet.

 

[diver 85]

Always remember wave(OP)---it's ALWAYS about the George, that's what makes the world go round))......Sad to say this, but it's true.......

 

[AdivingBel]

Always remember wave(OP)---it's ALWAYS about the George, that's what makes the world go round))......Sad to say this, but it's true.......

Really? I don't have thousands of dives, but I've seen divers in the Keys left on the dock 'cause they didn't have their c-card, didn't have an AOW when required by the dive OP, guide didn't show up when required by the OP for an OW to dive, talked an AOW diver out of an advanced dive when the OP "just didn't think it looked right." I do dive in the Keys a good bit (I don't work for any of them), but for the most part have nothing but the highest regard for the dive OPs in the area. Saying "the George" is put above life and limb seems pretty cynical. How about individual responsibility? The divers were ALL certified to dive to recreational depths. I'm pretty sure nobody hid the advanced nature of the dive (it's the Vandenberg for goodness sake). Everyone on the dive exercised their right as a reasoning adult to make the dive. Let's anaylize what happened, not cast aspersions all about the room, IMHO.

 

[KevinNM]

How about individual responsibility? The divers were ALL certified to dive to recreational depths. I'm pretty sure nobody hid the advanced nature of the dive (it's the Vandenberg for goodness sake). Everyone on the dive exercised their right as a reasoning adult to make the dive. Let's anaylize what happened, not cast aspersions all about the room, IMHO.

You can see that same thing here. It just ended a lot worse. Everyone has been told in their OW not to do this, but the tour guide told them it was ok and they did it all the time. But then he made a wrong turn...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-and-incidents/425341-four-dead-italian-cave.html

 

[AdivingBel]

You can see that same thing here. It just ended a lot worse. Everyone has been told in their OW not to do this, but the tour guide told them it was ok and they did it all the time. But then he made a wrong turn...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-and-incidents/425341-four-dead-italian-cave.html

You are really equating a dozen people being led into a cave with this incident?? Other than the swim through possibly separating the victim from a dive buddy he never really had, what did the overhead have to do with it? Seems like you're using this incident to soap box about a completely different topic. Bad things can happen. People lie. Sure, but let's not extrapolate that to "the dollar rules all, come what may" where all dive OPs are concerned. The individual makes the call. My point is it's YOUR life. Diving is a risky endevor. That risk can be mitigated by following your training and most importantly sound self-survial based judgement. Use your head. If you decide to do the dive, then REALLY use your head. Any death is a tragedy, but for every accident & incident there are thousands if not tens of thousand or more dives that go off as planned, happy endings, wonderful experiences. IMHO, we should stick to figuring out how to make more of the latter and fewer of the former.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I admire your discipline. IMHO, making a well thought out decision and sticking to it is highly commendable. I dive those same wrecks and enjoy the swim throughs. Risk assesment is very personal. While I'm comfortable talking about how much I enjoy dropping in an accessible pilot house/bridge and peeping out the portholes, I would never encourage someone to dive outside their comfort zone to do the same. To me other than the handfull of black & white do's and don'ts, remaining in your comfort zone is most critical to safe diving. Inside the zone is "zen." Outside, crap happens too fast and danger abounds. I'm sure when/if you feel the urge to push the envelope (not necessarily swim throughs, but any diving envelope) you'll do it in a considered, well thought out manner. At least from reading your posts, that would be my bet.
. . .

"Sticking to it"--ha. I think I may actually be regressing! The more I read and the more I learn, the less inclined I am to push the envelope. Oh, back when I was a new diver, I probably followed well-intentioned divemasters into a few places I now believe I shouldn't have been. At this point, just doing an ordinary dive to 100 feet on an Al 80 is something I give serious thought before jumping in. Swimming through an unfamiliar, narrow-ish passage at that depth?--not for me.