Sometime – It’s Just One Things After Another…

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Glad you are ok and It is good to know even divers who seem to be good can still make mistakes like everyone else. I am soo glad you are ok!! T

Thank you for having the courage to tell us and I hope that others will show the same courtesy shown you in this thread when new people they don't know tell about thier mistakes.

We learned a lot of what we know about diving from the mistakes of others unfortunately(thier deaths) sometimes.

Have many more safer dives.
 
Thanks for sharing the experience, Don.

Also thanks to Northeast for your insights into this incident.

BTW, I can get the meaning from context, but I've never heard this term before. Is it regional, or perhaps an older expression?

Northeastwrecks:
...mollycoddling...
 
Diver Denny:
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point. It wasn't luck at all but rather training and experience that got him through this. No one is arguing that some mistakes were made in the planning and execution, but once he found himself in a low-air situation he delt with it very competently. Most importantly, as it has been mentioned before, he did not panic.
Proper training and experience would have prevented this situation from arising in the first place.

Regardless, the problems continued throughout the dive. Once the OOA occurred for the second time on the same dive, the diver abandoned his rescuer and did a free ascent to the surface. This left the diver solo on a decompression obligation. In addition, it is risky. Clearing a decompression obligation on a computer does not mean that your system is totally free of nitrogen. Ascending slowly is critical, particularly since the last 33 feet of a dive is the place where the most significant pressure change occurs.

Doing a blow and go from 20 feet on a deco dive is begging for a nice ride in an air ambulance.

So, respectfully, I don't quite see how training and experience played a significant role in this.

As for a lack of panic, based on the report, while the diver was not in a full blown panic, he was breathing at an accelerated rate and was putting other divers at risk. This is not a prime example of proper training.

Personally, I am not a proponent of solo diving but I've heard rational arguments for it.
I've heard arguments for many things with which I do not agree. Regardless, nothing I wrote above would prevent someone from solo diving. However, those who choose to solo dive should plan on being able to handle their mistakes and emergencies solo as well.

In the case of sharing air it does seem a bit of an imposition on the part of the solo diver.
It's more than an imposition. It's dangerous. It's relying upon other divers who have neither agreed to become responsible for the diver nor planned for it and expecting them to bail out your sorry butt. It puts the rescuer's entire team at a greater risk and decreases the pleasure of their dive.

If someone is planning to solo dive, then they need to be able to extricate themselves from a situation without running to another diver for help. Period. That means complete redundancy of all life support systems, strict adherance to proper dive planning and enough experience to either find the upline or know what to do if they can't. It doesn't mean attaching yourself to another team without their knowledge or permission, then expecting them to save you.

However, standard practice means coming out of the water with 500psi left in the tank.
Its not standard practice in my training.

Even if this was correct, and it is not, would you care to explain how you make this happen? In particular, how do you determine how much gas you will need in order to come up with 500 psi?

This also ignores the simple fact that I plan to donate gas to my buddies. We plan our dives so that we can share air and ascend safely. My reserves are intended to be used for emergencies that happen within my team. They are not intended to bail out other divers who can't, or won't, properly plan their dives.

Sparing a couple hundred pounds of air to help out a fellow diver is no big deal.
First, it sounds like this diver used far more than a couple of hundred pounds. Second, it is a big deal if the reason for the air share was the diver's inadequate equipment and planning.

So it's really only a problem if the donor screwed up his dive plan as well.
Which you won't know about until you go on their regulator. Of course, in this case, it doesn't sound like this was a problem because I never read anything about checking the donee's remaining gas during the air share.

I'm also curious about a comment you made earlier...

The certification I went through included decompression schedules for dives past the NDL. Of course this is in the context of a recreational dive within the 130' limit, we're not talking technical diving.

In other words, you've been trained to handle minimal decompression as part of an emergency. That doesn't mean that you should rely upon this training to deliberately exceed NDL's. Even if the training was adequate, safely executing planned decompression dives requires additional equipment. It also requires skills beyond looking at your computer and hoping that it has properly calculated your obligation.

Although it's our club's policy not to do deco dives, a prudent dive plan should include the deco schedule if there is a potential of breaching the NDL and make allowances for additional air requirements.

A prudent recreational dive plan is one that does not exceed NDL's. If the diver's situational awareness or other skills are such that they can't handle this, then the prudent dive plan involves an extended exploration of the kiddy pool at the local YMCA.

When it is practical to do so we have a hang tank near the safety stop for these situations. Between this and allowing for extra air on the ascent what other special equipment is required?

A safety tank on the line is utterly useless if you are not ascending on the line, if the regs are being used, if the tank or the reg fails or, since we are talking about divers who have incurred decompression obligations, if your ceiling is below the depth at which the tank is hanging.

Essentially, if you are going to be doing decompression dives, you need redundant systems that you carry with you, so that you can address failures, together with training to plan the dive safely and to adjust the plan if necessary.
 
jagfish:
BTW, I can get the meaning from context, but I've never heard this term before. Is it regional, or perhaps an older expression?

According to dictionary.com, it means to be overprotective and indulgent toward. It is synonymous with pamper. I don't know if it is regional; however, I believe that it may be an older expression.
 
opiniongirl:
Who do you think was "mollycoddling" him?

Anyone who thinks that this Charlie Foxtrot was managed properly, that he survived due to his skill and "lack" of panic or that this accident was not a big deal that should raise serious issues that need to be addressed before something worse happens.
 
Don, Glad you are back and alive.

I don't know much about deco and pony bottle's yet. Stories like these help me keep my eyes focused on education as well as experience. Thanx for sharing.
 
Thanks Tiggrr, Denny, BDQB and others who have been nice here....

I knew I'd take some thumping from some membes here, but I wanted to share in hopes of helping others, anyway. And like I said...

"The good news, I now realize that I'm not as good of a diver as I thought I was and now realize that I do need a lot of work!"
 
I'm not going to get into a religious war. Obviously Mr. Northeastwreck has strong opinions on the matter and it is unlikely that I, with far less diving experience, is going to change them.

However, I will share my humble opinions relevant to this incident and let you, the educated reader decide.

1) Hanging a bottle at 15' is a good thing. Unless you seriously go over the NDL your deco obligations start at 20' (see DCIEM tables). A hang tank at '15 with a 6' reg hose can easily accomodate this. In our experience the tank is rarely used and when it is, it's because someone had dipped below the 500psi mark and wanted to comfortably complete their safety stop.

2) Yes it IS possible to surface with 500psi. Our certifying agency teaches to begin final ascent with no less than 500, but our club policy is to try and surface with 500psi (lest you suffer the scournful stare of the DM). This does two things, it gives you an extra safety buffer and secondly it requires you to understand your rate of air consumption. As Mr. Northeastwreck indirectly pointed out, only with practice can you understand what you need to leave with given the depth and conditions in order to make it out with 500psi. Mr. Northeastwreck, if I can manage it surely someone with your diving experience can!

3) If another diver approaches in need of air, buddy or not, I'm going to give it to him! Seriously, what would you do in this situation?! On a safety stop, who cares? It's the end of my dive, I'm heading up too! Do I care if someone other than my buddy is using my emergency reserve of air? Of course not!! I have dived with many newly certified divers. None of them sucked so bad that I would deny another diver, in immediate need of assistance, air because my buddy *might* need it!

4) If for some reason I find myself in need of air AND for some other reason my buddy is nowhere to be found AND there is someone else close by, I am going to - with calm - give the OOA signal and ask to share air.

5) Know about the factors affecting nitrogen loading that your dive computer cannot calculate for. As Mr. Northwestwrecks vaguely put it "[decompression diving] requires skills beyond looking at your computer and hoping that it has properly calculated your obligation" Many divers use the dive computer to take advantage of dynamically calculating a multi-level profile thereby extend their bottom time, or as ShakaZulu described as "Riding the NDL curve" Doing this reduces the margin of error since the computer calculates for depth, time and maybe altitude and temperature. Dr. David Sawatzky wrote a good article in Diver magazine on this topic (I think it was in the Nov 2003 issue). Things like fatigue, hydration, physical conditioning, age, have an effect on nitrogen loading and must be taken into consideration.

6) Training and practice!!! I agree that proper SCUBA training has suffered. Weekend OWD certifications seem to be replacing 12 week (18hrs classroom, 18hrs pool and 7 o/w dives) OWD certifications. IMHO, a weekend is not enough to pick up the skills and knowledge required to be a safe diver. Additionally, we encourage club members to help out at the pool during classes which also serves to maintain their skills.

From the near misses I've read so far from those brave enough to post them, none have been what I would classify as accidents and only a few that might qualify as incidents. I suspect that the people that frequent this site are avid divers with a keen interest in safety. Are mistakes made? Of course, we're human. I'm also sure we all have our stories of the occasional bone-headed move, including Mr. Northeastwreck.
 
Diver Denny:
2) Yes it IS possible to surface with 500psi. Our certifying agency teaches to begin final ascent with no less than 500, but our club policy is to try and surface with 500psi (lest you suffer the scournful stare of the DM). This does two things, it gives you an extra safety buffer and secondly it requires you to understand your rate of air consumption. As Mr. Northeastwreck indirectly pointed out, only with practice can you understand what you need to leave with given the depth and conditions in order to make it out with 500psi. Mr. Northeastwreck, if I can manage it surely someone with your diving experience can!

On this point, I rather suspect that N.E.Wreck was referring to the concept of Rock Bottom. It is more of a calculation thing (as opposed to an experience thing), and lets you calculate what your "turn" pressure should be from different depths. You can use your upper level SAC, or a really safe "panic" SAC rate, and use that to calculate the air your would need do a safe ascent and stops (and make an allowance for the final pressure you wish to have). Then you double this to account for an out of air buddy that might be with you. Then you have an easily reproducible way to come back from depth safely with your desired air pressure "reserve" of 500 or whatever you decide.

If you run a search for Rock Bottom, you will see plenty of action on the topic. Some of the posts have precalculated values (based on a high SAC rate of 1cf) that you can write on your wet notes and keep in your pocket for quick reference.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom