Sometime – It’s Just One Things After Another

[DandyDon]

I'm glad you are ok and I can't really add anything that hasn't been addressed other than it seems your air usage is pretty high.

I'll hit NDL limits on an AL 80 with air to spare, you had 120 cf of air to start and went through it all, this means that a 19 cf pony would have vastly different breathing times for the two of us. With your air usage, anything approaching NDL limits might be too risky. Your breathing rate doesn't really allow you to safely ascend when things go out of control.

Xanthro

No my usage is usually pretty moderate, actually. I usually dive those wrecks with a 100 cf tank, find the anchor line before NDL, get back to the hang line with plenty of air to spare to anyone else who might run short. And I've shared air to others many times, from my main and my Pony when they were real hoovers.

I planned the dive totally differently, but a lot of things went to caca - first time I didn't find the anchor, first time I had to swim into a current rather than pull along the wreck, first time I had to go into deco and short air looking for the line in a haze of fishes, etc. Still would have been okay, but this was also the first time I had a reg fail like that. If I was married, I'd really wonder. :joke:

I was going to just let this thread quietly die, but since you opened it up again, I do want to suggest that the reason for my report, indeed the reason for this forum, is not so that self-righteous divers can come in posting like Napolian know it alls. I put up with that for days as I was just too shook up to deal with it other than be temtped into a flaming arguement, and as I knew I didn't want to fall for that - I chose the "descretion is the better part of valor" routine, letting the inappropriate bashing happpen. I kept think a Mod would step in, but - I'm a big boy, so I put up with it.

However, that is not the way these sharing reports are supposed to be treated, and for as much as I can do for the next poster - if you get bashed like I did, and I learn of it, I'll ride in as I can and a I will find a Mod who believes in a supportive SB rather than such bashing. Other boards exist for that kind of behavior, and it is my understanding that this is not to be one of them.

And to the poster who said: "Several of us tried to tell you about back mounted pony bottles." Yeah, you did; you said to sling it so I can pass it off, a suggestion I still reject totally. I have just learned another reason to sling it, without your help. The sling is ordered and should be here anyday now. My main reg is a new MK-25, and my replacement Pony reg will soo be a new CDX5, and I will have the Pony slung so I can see it better - no thanks to your I-told-you-nots.

And to the "The pappose is a wreck that I'd dive with my doubles and one decompression gas. The wreck is too deep to get much of a dive without planned decompression so I'd plan on it." - Balderdash. I would not agree to shutting down the recreational wreck diving industry from Virginia to Key West just so professional divers with multi tanks and deco training can dive them alone. I wish that Olympus would rent 100s rather than 80s for the wrecks, but the one time I went out with them - we didn't get out of the channel before we scrubbed. The operator I do out with there uses 100s and 120s, but I find the 100s adequate for recreational dives. A dive to 100-110 even on 30% Nx is a brief one, but better than not diving the wrecks until we're as accomplished as you. Having a 120 was excessive, but a why-not. Doubles are fine for those who want to dive them, but not necessary for a recreation dive to those wrecks, or the popular ones off of the Florida Keys.

Next month, I'll be diving the Eagle, Bibb, and Duanne with 100s, and unless I can arrange bigger, the Grove with 80s. Short, NDL dives that they will be, they'll be better than waiting until we all have doubles and deco training.

Thank-you​

 

[diverkristi]

Don, I read this when you PM'd me about it at the time you posted it. I have not kept up from that point until now.

I appreciate learning from your experience, and I am thankful you are back and OK, as you have been a pal on here.

I am shocked at all the "I told you sos" and finger pointing going on. I am sure the purpose of your post was so we can all learn from what happened. Thank You.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

???

Not sure I follow you here. . .

The calculations aren't complicated, so I assume you mean something else . . .

Terry

I agree. They aren't complicated and can be calculated reasonably quickly.

My question was in response to someone who uses the tried and true "exit the water with 500 psi" as their "plan". :11:

I'm simply asking that person to tell us how many cubic feet of gas a diver, and a buddy, will need to ascend from, say, 110 fsw, and complete all necessary stops so as to have the 500 psi that the diver's club has decided to use as an ending pressure.

Once he tells us that, the diver can tell us the tank pressure at which the ascent must begin for whatever tank he is diving.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

I am shocked at all the "I told you sos" and finger pointing going on. I am sure the purpose of your post was so we can all learn from what happened. Thank You.

I agree that the purpose of the forum is to learn. However, the only way to do that is to analyze the events, identify the root cause of problems and determine how to solve them. It does absolutely no good to hold a virtual group hug, congratulate all involved on surviving a close one, write it off to bad luck and hope that it doesn't happen again. Doing that is a great way to end up in a memorial thread.

After every dive, my team sits down and discusses (1) what was our plan; (2) what did we do wrong; (3) what did we do right; (4) what was the cause of what we did wrong; and (5) what can we do to correct the problems. Sometimes our problems are very minor issues, other times they are more significant. Regardless, the discussion is pointed and direct. It's not fun to have your dive performance criticized, but it is important, particularly if we are to accomplish our goal of increasing our diving skills.

What did you learn from the post? What steps should be taken to correct the deficiencies and make sure that they do not reoccur? What changes, if any, would you make to the diver's gear configuration, dive plan, and/or training?

 

[MikeFerrara]

And I've shared air to others many times, from my main and my Pony when they were real hoovers.

If you have had to share air many times there is a real problem here Don. Don't you see that? I have more than a few dives in conditions ranging from the ocean to the caves, to depths that I won't even go into here and several years of teaching experience and I've only had to donate air once. That was when my wife botched a valve drill and though she was at 20 ft with several hundred cu ft of gas all of it was momentarily unavailable. I did have the husband of a student tag along with a class and run himself out of gas but one of my DMs took care of him.

These things just shouldn't be happening.

I planned the dive totally differently, but a lot of things went to caca - first time I didn't find the anchor, first time I had to swim into a current rather than pull along the wreck, first time I had to go into deco and short air looking for the line in a haze of fishes, etc. Still would have been okay, but this was also the first time I had a reg fail like that. If I was married, I'd really wonder. :joke:

This is the problem with a wreck like that. When you hit your ascent pressure...you ascend whether or not you've found the stupid line. You and the boat crew have to have a plan in place for the case of a diver doing a drifting ascent. You simply shoot a bag to mark your location and ascend where you are.

I was going to just let this thread quietly die, but since you opened it up again, I do want to suggest that the reason for my report, indeed the reason for this forum, is not so that self-righteous divers can come in posting like Napolian know it alls. I put up with that for days as I was just too shook up to deal with it other than be temtped into a flaming arguement, and as I knew I didn't want to fall for that - I chose the "descretion is the better part of valor" routine, letting the inappropriate bashing happpen. I kept think a Mod would step in, but - I'm a big boy, so I put up with it.

Who's the know it all Don?

However, that is not the way these sharing reports are supposed to be treated, and for as much as I can do for the next poster - if you get bashed like I did, and I learn of it, I'll ride in as I can and a I will find a Mod who believes in a supportive SB rather than such bashing. Other boards exist for that kind of behavior, and it is my understanding that this is not to be one of them.

Supportive? or truthful? If you want a hug or your hand held see your wife, mother or something. I had no intention of bashing you but as I see it you've worked very hard at getting yourself into this mess.

And to the poster who said: "Several of us tried to tell you about back mounted pony bottles." Yeah, you did; you said to sling it so I can pass it off, a suggestion I still reject totally.

No sir! I never once suggested that the reason was so that you could hand it off. I said it was so that you could see the gauge (on a short hose) and reach the valve. Certainly in the case of an entanglement it's nice to be able to ditch it though.

I have just learned another reason to sling it, without your help. The sling is ordered and should be here anyday now. My main reg is a new MK-25, and my replacement Pony reg will soo be a new CDX5, and I will have the Pony slung so I can see it better - no thanks to your I-told-you-nots.

Again review my many posts in the pony bottle threads. The reasons I (and others) have given against pony bottles in general and back mounted ponys specifically were to avoid the exact thing that happened to you...not having any gas in it when you need it and needing it because you counted on it when you shouldn't have in the first place.

Your report should be posted at the beginning of every pony bottle and solo thread on the board because it's an absolute clasic example of what so many of us have tried so hard to explain to you and what your instructors have totally failed you in.

And to the "The pappose is a wreck that I'd dive with my doubles and one decompression gas. The wreck is too deep to get much of a dive without planned decompression so I'd plan on it." - Balderdash. I would not agree to shutting down the recreational wreck diving industry from Virginia to Key West just so professional divers with multi tanks and deco training can dive them alone. I wish that Olympus would rent 100s rather than 80s for the wrecks, but the one time I went out with them - we didn't get out of the channel before we scrubbed. The operator I do out with there uses 100s and 120s, but I find the 100s adequate for recreational dives. A dive to 100-110 even on 30% Nx is a brief one, but better than not diving the wrecks until we're as accomplished as you. Having a 120 was excessive, but a why-not. Doubles are fine for those who want to dive them, but not necessary for a recreation dive to those wrecks, or the popular ones off of the Florida Keys.

Balderdash away as you see fit but you are the guys having to share air all the time! You state the key thing right here in what you say and that is it's a short dive. Time pressure is one of the worst things we ever have to deal with and you are putting yourself under it from the start. With gas to breath and a little time we can solve just about anything underwater. You're not giving yourself much of either. It's not just the depth but other conditions as well...like the ripping current you can have on a wreck like the Papoose.

You may think that the clusters that some of those charters are diving is better than not diving at all but I think it's better still to wait til you have the right skills and equipment.

Next month, I'll be diving the Eagle, Bibb, and Duanne with 100s, and unless I can arrange bigger, the Grove with 80s. Short, NDL dives that they will be, they'll be better than waiting until we all have doubles and deco training.

Thank-you​

Good luck.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Don, I read this when you PM'd me about it at the time you posted it. I have not kept up from that point until now.

I appreciate learning from your experience, and I am thankful you are back and OK, as you have been a pal on here.

I am shocked at all the "I told you sos" and finger pointing going on. I am sure the purpose of your post was so we can all learn from what happened. Thank You.

Well Kristy, there just isn't anything to learn here beyond what a diver should learn in their entry level training. Namely, manage your gas supply, dive within the limits of your training, experience and equipment and plan your dive including contingencies...like having to ascend away from the line. Oh...and having a buddy. Having to ascend away from the line is a very real risk in any OW dive. Add current and the odds go WAY up. Shoot sometimes a boat will even break away from the mooring. Sometimes the boat breakes away from the mooring when you're on the line...which is one reason why many prefer not to be in a spot where they have to be close to the line at all! They can snap so hard they'll cut you in two.

Here we have a diver using a hosed up equipment configuration (empty pony bottle on the back, no buddy, no solo or technical training, no meaningful gas management (or violating the gas plan if there was one) and a backup plan of leaching off other teams run into by chance. Sorry that is a blatant endangerment of every one else on the dive. It's an accident looking for a place to happen...oh it already did I guess.

You all give him the hug he seems to want but you best do it now before he goes diving again.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Don here are some links to just a few posts that are representative of what I've had to say about pony bottles...

here

an here

also here

here too

Notice that in one I specifically rebuke the handing off idea.

I also suggest you carefully review the whole thread this next link is too. In reviewing these links it looks like this dive of yours was predicted with uncanny accuracy. Also notice that you started this thread.

carefully re-read the whole thing

 

[lamont]

hopefully this response is flame free, i'm certainly not intending it to be a flame...

you've made one modification in the pony bottle, but have you been looking at gas management? in reading your incident report that was one thing that really stuck out to me. you made a couple of choices which i would consider to be errors and that seemed to snowball into your incident. i hope you're looking at better gas management techniques for these kinds of deeper dives.

and i'll hop off the kool-aid and say that that i don't see any problems with the dives that you're doing -- provided that you've got adequate gas management and you've got that pony slung as a stage. i think at that point it becomes more a matter of individual choice and acceptable risk. but the signal that you're not doing something right is when you're needing to OOA someone, or almost needing to OOA someone -- you shouldn't ever be letting that happen on these dives...

anyway, i gotta go take a shower and go jump in the ocean...

 

[DandyDon]

Okay, Mike - I was wrong about your remarks, I'll admit it, and I apologize.

Unfortunately for this discussion, your's came after the self-righteous barrage, and on top of dealing with my incident, I was defensive about the tone he was putting on this thread.

One big difference between your diving and mine is - you get to do it more, and with divers you instruct, I think, giving you better buddies and better experiences. I get to dive from time to time, and all too often I have to accept buds who I cannot depend on at all, ergo I try to be more self sufficient. I am all about becoming a better and safer diver, but it's difficult to discuss rationally when some person is getting off with his chance to kick me when I'm down, before you came on.

I will read your lenghty posts and links later today when I can make time for more than scanning. Could not do them justice right now.

For now, I do want to offer possible things a reader may take from this thread would include:
(1) Some operators will take divers on trips they shoudn't be on. I am not that example here, but what if this had happened to a newly carded AOW off one of the less picky boats there or in Key Largo?
(2) Equipment fails, but when it does, keep thinking about the next best action, and follow your best options - never panicking.
(3) Divers screw up even with good plans. I'm just a diver, certainly not a pro - but in some cases others can learn more from another traveling diver. Again, think out the alternate options and work the best ones.
(4) But while all this talk has some value, there is no replacement for good training, good practice under more controlled situations, and then - pushing envelopes only within prudent limits.


And lamont -

Thanks for your good suggestions. Really, my gas management was planned well, I think? A third out, a third back - which would push me to NDL without Deco, and a third left in case of problems, for me or others on the line or along the way. The Pony was never part of the plan, of course - but a back up that had its own failure. The situation deteriated, and my mistakes made them worse, so I encountered two big surprises on my gas supply. I certainly hope to do better on my involvement in such in the future, though, as there will be more bad surprises to come, always.

.

 

[diverkristi]

I agree that the purpose of the forum is to learn. However, the only way to do that is to analyze the events, identify the root cause of problems and determine how to solve them. It does absolutely no good to hold a virtual group hug, congratulate all involved on surviving a close one, write it off to bad luck and hope that it doesn't happen again. Doing that is a great way to end up in a memorial thread.

After every dive, my team sits down and discusses (1) what was our plan; (2) what did we do wrong; (3) what did we do right; (4) what was the cause of what we did wrong; and (5) what can we do to correct the problems. Sometimes our problems are very minor issues, other times they are more significant. Regardless, the discussion is pointed and direct. It's not fun to have your dive performance criticized, but it is important, particularly if we are to accomplish our goal of increasing our diving skills.

What did you learn from the post? What steps should be taken to correct the deficiencies and make sure that they do not reoccur? What changes, if any, would you make to the diver's gear configuration, dive plan, and/or training?

I do not yet have the experience to comment, as I am a new diver myself. I will tell you this, I know my limitations and comfort level, and I will not exceed them. I tend to err on the side of caution, and I am reading about everything I can get my hands on. Doing AOW and Nitrox classes in a few weeks. Have recently read (to Don's surprise) Shadow Divers and The Last Dive. Learning from many on here as well.

Your arrogance is appalling to me. I will not comment further, as I do not wish to be the next victim of your attacks. Though I probably will be.