SSI or PADI or other dive institution?

[DevonDiver]

There's one universal truism when it comes to diving courses: You get what you pay for.

Offering a cheap(er) course generally means that it has to be:

1) Loaded with students: (max student/instructor ratio is 8:1 and more with a DM assistant). The higher ratios dilutes practice time and obstructs the instructor from paying sufficient personal attention to refining and/or remediating each students' development.

2) Minimum Timescale: The instructor manual for the Open Water course lists the minimum requirements for training. Somehow, for many dive centers/instructors, those minimum requirements have become the course. Nothing more. Those requirements can be squeezed into an absurdly short space of time. There is no adjustment to those minimums or that time-scale based upon other factors; such as the student's actual ability, the student-instructor ratio or the diving conditions.

3) Minimum Standards: The courses have to run to a fast schedule. Delays and extensions erase profitability. This means that the instructor is under pressure to squeeze each and every student through the course, irregardless of their actual progression and ability. Needless to say, not every student has the capacity to reach a good standard of diving competency within a minimum timescale (some do, but few). The instructor, therefore, feels obliged to lower their definition of 'mastery'; to lower the 'pass' standards.

4) Cheap Instructor: Instructor wages form a substantial portion of the dive course costs. Course costs can be decreased by reducing this cost. Inexperienced (newly qualified) or low standard instructors are often willing to work for peanuts (or free)... "for the experience". Some dive centers capitalize on this - selecting only staff who have extremely low expectations of payment. In contrast, experienced and dedicated instructors; who have accumulated a wealth of diving and teaching experience, tend to want a salary commensurate with their ability. As the saying goes; "you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". Such instructors have a low breadth of experience (less able to recognize and correct student weaknesses), often with a low motivation to achieve high-quality results. These instructors are caught in the same 'trap' as the dive center - typically paid per student/per course, they need to achieve volume training. They are not rewarded for quality. No prizes for guessing their mindset when teaching...

 

[Lead_carrier]

shellfish, you've recieved some pretty decent answers to your concerns but the long and short of it is that you don't feel comfortable. Go to a local shop, talk to the manager and lay it out for them. They SHOULD be able to offer some advice on getting you more comfortable. Possible a skills update, just using their pool or maybe you can find a new dm that would be willing to work with you on your skills just for the practice. You should be prepared to pay something for any extra help but many times help can be given for a handshake and thank you if you just ask.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

This post highlights my major issue with recreational diver training and how it is being conducted. I disagree with those who say that PADI and SSI etc is not to be blamed as it is only the instructor. If the instructor is operating in violation of established standards then it is the instructors fault. If he is operating within the standards of his agency be it PADI or SSI then a portion of the blame also goes to the certification agencies.

Scuba is a rich mans sport but scuba industry is a poor mans industry. There are very few people who are making good money by teaching scuba and even the ones who are in retail often find themselves struggling. This has created a very nasty business environment in which instructors and dive shops are basically sitting to ambush the unsuspecting student. In order to increase profit margins they will try to teach in the cheapest quickest manner and their certification agencies will turn a blind eye to a lot of nonsense. Everyone in the industry (PADI, LDS, diving resorts, equipment manufacturers) want maximum people out on the street who believe they are qualified divers! These are the "customers" on whom the whole industry feeds upon. The more you put out there in the least amount of money the richer everyone tends to get.

Earlier I posted a question about "which scuba certification agency has killed the most people?" Every year 90 people just like you die scuba diving so asking who trained them should be a legitimate question. If you can find that thread somewhere you will see how the whole scuba industry from instructors, tour boat operators and retailers etc all came together to mute the discussion. The post was actually deleted from this board because "people didn't see the point!" What a reason to terminate the discussion isnt it? If you do not see the point then you follow other posts. Why would you delete a post because it appeared "pointless." The fact is that scuba industry is very much like narcotics industry. They sell a product that kills people (90 every year). Any inquiry will cause the industry to come together and save each others back because at some level everyone has financially benefitted from 2 - 3 day Open Water courses and extremely high instructor to student ratios etc. The sheer number of trained divers would be less if this was not going on.

Here is my advice. While you read it keep in mind that I am not a dive professional but a consumer in the dive industry who has been stung repeatedly in training, gear purchases etc. These are my personal rules for surviving in the diving industry as a newbie.

1. Operate on the assumption that diving industry in general will be full of crooks. You really can not blame them because their profit margins are extremely low compared to the effort they put into their work. They will kill you to feed their own family just like most human beings.

2. Always seek training locally: If you go from USA to Thailand for scuba training, be prepared to be shafted and robbed off your money with the least training because they know you are a tourist who can not return back and complain. They will teach you the bare minimum, throw you into the ocean with a dive guide and let you go home with a C-card. Bravo they have created a "customer" for scuba gear industry. if you die due to a training related issue it will happen in a country miles away so no one will come after them.

3. Seek instructors who have built a reputation: Fortunately there are diving instructors who have built a name and reputation for themselves and they take personal pride in their coaching. They add things above and beyond "industry standards." In the DIR/GUE crowd I have met a lot of people like this but they are not restricted to just GUE. It is an instructor mindset that you will learn to identify once you get into the industry go to diving expos etc.

4. Once you become certified do the first 20 dives either with a DM or someone who is more experienced than you. I encourage hiring Divemasters because these are at the bottom of the industry food chain. By recognizing them as "professionals" rather than slave labor you are putting money into the industry in an area where it lacks the most. Also keep in mind that this is not charity. A dive master can show you areas of a dive site that you could rarely find yourself so the experience will be a totally different one. It will be less stress free more enjoyable for you but it will cost a little bit more.

Good luck and safe diving.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

CS, we've had our differences in the past and likely will again. But this post of yours will get no argument from me for the most part. You said what I would have said a few years ago before I realized that I needed to be more politically correct. Sometimes I miss those days. Good post and good advice. Thanks.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[farsidefan1]

I well remember my "starving student days". I have sympathy for going "cheap". I liked drich's answer about studying BEFORE taking the course. As a college student you cram for finals, after studying the whole semester and if you fail, well you might get a crummy grade. Maybe have to retake the class. Now think about the ramifications of failing to master dive basics. Different outcome entirely. Scuba is not dangerous, assuming you have mastered certain basic procedures. If you haven't mastered those skills... Well it can actually become dangerous. That is why you need to pre study the materials. Then your instructor time, if limited can be used to answer the things you didn't figure out AFTER studying and reviewing the material. Much more efficient use of time and resources. PS, for those wondering my starving student days came AFTER the dinosaurs. As to the ice age, I ain't talking. But it was damn cold.

 

[Oldbear]

I will not disagree with what others have said...there are many truisms there. :cool3:


But I also think the student has to take an active role in their education. Far too many novice divers look at PADI, NAUI, YMCA etc. courses are just a means to a certificate to quench their urge to dive. The information is there...the student just has to read and comprehend it. My approach to my education is that the instructor is there to assist me in my comprehension. I am not advocating that the instructor/training center does not have a role in the student's education; for they do...it is a symbiotic relationship. The student needs the instructor to do their part and the instructor needs the student to do their part as well.


Diver Training should not be based on the public education system where you just show up and get your HS Diploma.



That is my 2¢…take it for what it’s worth.


~Me~

 

[boulderjohn]

Since it should be clear that your instruction violated standards significantly, your next step should be to contact PADI and report it. When I was still a relatively new diver, I saw terrible instruction and reported it. PADI acted on it immediately.

BTW, PADI and SSI are part of a coalition that agrees to have the same minimum standards for OW.

 

[Steve_C]

Agree with above. The instructor matters. Is there local diving available? Your location is not listed. In our area there are quarries where a number of experienced divers are happy to take along new divers. Given you have the dollars you might want to take a buoyancy course. They help you get comfortable in the water. Dive clubs diving locally sometimes also provide a chance for safe easy diving with some mentorship.

 

[GrimSleeper]

He was a lot more attentive underwater than on land, almost overly so. He practically showed me how to do all of the skills before I repeated them back to him. He practically pulled me down when I breathed out and pushed me up when I breathed out during the buoyancy test. I think I would have done fine without his help, but... I also didn't need help swimming. I don't understand why he felt the need to hold my hand when there were four other students who were lagging far behind. We had to turn around and wait for them several times. He helped when no help was asked and neglected it when it was...

In short I don't feel prepared at all for my next dive, whenever that may be.

Funny thing is, he offered to certify me in the AOW right after I had completed my first two open water dives (DAY 2!). Told me that there was minimal theory work (I don't see how it could be any less than the thirty minutes I got with him on day 1), and that I would do perfectly fine in harder/deeper dives because my buoyancy was good (buoyancy was the part of the test he manhandled me on). He even offered to buddy dive afterwards... (more caverns/wrecks) I'm pretty sure he was fishing for money here .

~SS

Others have already pointed out that, when it comes to SCUBA training, you generally get what you pay for. You describe a bunch of violations of PADI standards, which you should report - the PADI Quality Assurance system exists so that the kind of inadequate training you received gets flagged. (Well, there are plenty of people who'll argue that PADI's QA system exists to protect PADI in court cases, rather than to maintain training standards, but this isn't the forum for that discussion...)

Given that you're female and a college student (and therefore presumably relatively young), I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the 'overly attentive' behavior underwater, the hand-holding, the offer of helping you do bold and adventurous (i.e. you're not trained or ready for them) dives after the course, were not necessarily aimed at getting more money out of you... In addition to 'gaining experience', one of the reasons that many inexperienced young male instructors work for peanuts in holiday destinations is that they're going to get to spend time teaching young women to do something glamorous and potentially dangerous, and - if they're lucky/persistent/sufficiently charming - that might lead to, how to put this, non-monetary rewards. If the instructor's thinking is anatomical rather than intellectual, you're never going to get a good course.

You were badly short-changed by the shop and the instructor. There's no way to even pretend you've adequately covered theory and confined water in a couple of hours, the instructor failed to ensure you demonstrated mastery of basic skills, and even re-using paperwork is actually a breach of the agreement the instructor and shop made with the certifying agency. As others have said, report it, then find yourself an instructor or (really) experienced mentor you feel comfortable with, make an honest attempt to catch up on the theory you missed out in your course, and enjoy some diving.