Still trying to balance my rig...suggestions?

[elan]

Well the solution is simple You need to get rid of the weight.
Either use an AL or kydex plate and figure out why your trim is not ok - there should be no big deal switching from one to the other or get a more buoyant tank. Faber Lp tanks tend to be more positive than worthingtons.

I am diving a 5mm full suit with a 25lb Hollis wing on my SS bp using a HP100 steel tank. Testing my rig for balance, I find that I cannot swim it up from 20' w no air in the wing so obviously I am overweighted.

I would like to keep using my 100cf steel tank for the extra dive time but am looking for a solution to being overweighted.

My only idea is to switch back to my AL plate to shed 4.2lbs, but that setup is very difficult to obtain good trim for some reason.

Any other ideas? Anyone else use a similar set-up for FW diving?

thanks

 

[eelnoraa]

Full HP100 or empty(500psi)? HP100 is only -2lb empty, SS plate is like -6lb, that makes total balast of -8lb only. I think a 5mm will take more than that to sink.

 

[Colliam7]

I am diving a 5mm full suit with a 25lb Hollis wing on my SS bp using a HP100 steel tank. Testing my rig for balance, I find that I cannot swim it up from 20' w no air in the wing so obviously I am overweighted. . . . My only idea is to switch back to my AL plate to shed 4.2lbs, but that setup is very difficult to obtain good trim for some reason.

Like several others, I am wondering about how much weight you are using with your rig, that prevents you from swimming a HP100 with a SS BP to the surface. I presume you are weighting your self to overcome the buoyancy of the 5mm at the surface. When I dive a 5mm in the quarry, with a HP100 and a SS BP (and a 30 lb wing) I hardly need any weight at all, usually 4 lbs at most. In that configuration swimming the rig to the surface is quite easy.

---------- Post added September 8th, 2013 at 08:04 AM ----------

I am diving a 5mm full suit with a 25lb Hollis wing on my SS bp using a HP100 steel tank. Testing my rig for balance, I find that I cannot swim it up from 20' w no air in the wing so obviously I am overweighted. . . . My only idea is to switch back to my AL plate to shed 4.2lbs, but that setup is very difficult to obtain good trim for some reason.

Like several others, I am wondering about how much weight you are using with your rig, that prevents you from swimming a HP100 with a SS BP to the surface. From your post, I canno tell if you are adding any weight, or not.

If you cannot swim a HP100 and SS BP - with no added weight - to the surface, that is surprising. So, I presume you are weighting yourself to overcome the buoyancy of the 5mm at the surface. When I dive a 5mm in FW (the quarry), with a HP100 and a SS BP (and a 30 lb wing) I hardly need any weight at all, 4 lbs at most and usually only 2. In that configuration swimming the rig to the surface is quite easy.

 

[DiveDaddyDale]

I dive with a 5mm full suit, OMS Slipstream fins, mask, compass and computer. I use a HOG rig set up DIR style. When using my SS bp and the HP00, I am overweighted and cannot swim the rig up with no air in the wing. My 25lb wing will keep my head out of the water but I have to fin when the tank is full to stay afloat. When at 500lbs of air in tank I am able to maintain surface buoyancy with light finning.

Of course this is not a safe and balanced rig. Were I to have to maintain surface buoyancy in rough seas would be difficult. In addition if it all goes wrong and I could not inflate my rig for some reason, I would have to shed the whole rig to surface. No real problem at 10' but a real concern at 80'.

I am not focused on trim right now as I know there are many adjustments I could make if my rig was balanced. BUT, adding weight is not an option, I am looking to lose weight in order to increase buoyancy.

By switching to an AL plate I could lose 4.2lbs. I guess I will do that and see what difference it makes. I could go to drysuit, but the investment is more than I can justify at the moment.

What bugs me is that other divers using a similar set up add weights and here I am overweighted with NO weights! Darn it!

i am 5'10" and 193lbs. In FW I am naturally a little negative, but can float using breath control.

It appears that this is a "I dunno" situation without an answer. I admit it gets discouraging, spending all this $, investing all this time and still not be able to work out how to dive a bigger tank as a AL80 is just too restrictive for the type of diving I want to do.

Thanks for all the advice my friends.

 

[TSandM]

I read through this and what keeps coming to mind is the difference between overweighted and negative.

If you can't hold a safety stop with the steel tank and a Kydex plate, you are UNDERWEIGHTED. Which suggests that, with the steel plate, you may be PROPERLY weighted . . . but with the compression of the suit at depth, and a tank full of gas, you are very NEGATIVE and can't swim that up. There is no good solution to that problem, because you can't dive underweighted, and it's not a good idea to dive an unbalanced rig that you can't swim up. This is why my agency recommends dry suits for deep dives in cooler water. Not only does the dry suit not lose buoyancy at depth the way thick wetsuits do, you are likely to have to carry weight to sink it, so if it floods, you have weight you can ditch. In addition, it's very unlikely that both your dry suit AND your wing would fail on the same dive.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

With 25 - 49 dives if your count is correct I wonder if you are not pushing this too fast on your own? Have you worked with someone to do a really good weight check? How are you determing that you are weighted properly in just your suit? Then adding the rig. With a steel tank other than say a LP72 I would not be using a 23-25 lb wing. I recommened smaller wings like that for al 80's and warm water. My 23lb wing has not seen much use thanks to diving mainly cooler temps up here. I have a 32 that I use with a steel plate and my LP 95's with a 5 mil in that configuration need no weight and can easily stay at the surface without finning and without feeling like I am going to tip forward.

And what about an al80 is too restrictive? Is it deeper dives? Longer bottom times? Or something else entirely? Your problems are why I run workshops on buoyancy and trim. Less expensive than say a "peak buoyancy" type course that from my own oberservations of those done by the book are not as effective as one tailored to each person. I don't know how much you've spent but when I do a course like this it's under $100 and often has immediate and sometimes drastic results. And it takes one day.

It also sounds like all this work is getting in the way of one of the most critical aspects of developing good buoyancy, trim, and weighting - that being enjoying your dives and just having fun. All this shifting, changing, etc., often just screws with a persons head and makes the whole experience miserable and in doing that just increases the problems. You can't relax and just have fun.

Using the smallest wing and least amount of weight is an admirable goal. But it rarely is done overnight. And often starting out that way when basic skills are not even dialed in just adds to the problems.

 

[DiveDaddyDale]

Well put. I should then say that I am probably not overweighted but rather having trouble with my buoyancy. An important distinction.

"But Honey, the divers on the scuba board MADE me get this drysuit". ��

---------- Post added September 8th, 2013 at 10:36 AM ----------

Good words Jim. I am certainly not having a great deal of "fun" diving right now but I see it as part of the price to pay whole developing the system.

I am a very focused and determined person who over analyzes situations (part of my job requirements) and do not easily give up when the going gets tough. I will see this through and attain my goal.

A class would certainly be advisable. I will check to see who might be able to help with that in the DFW area.

I can only assume that it is the characteristics of the steel tank causing my difficulty since I am fine when using my AL80. Sorry to admit after spending so much $ on the HP100 that the easiest answer is to just stick with the AL80 until I get a drysuit.

I could save myself some $ by not buying the AL plate and just sticking with my set-up and diving the 80. Hate to make another expenditure, re-rig my rig (again) and not solve the issue. Never was much for throwing good money after bad.

Next month we will be diving Cozumel with steel 120s. I curious to see what effect diving in SW has on my buoyancy. However, my diving is 95% FW.

 

[eelnoraa]

.... My 25lb wing will keep my head out of the water but I have to fin when the tank is full to stay afloat. When at 500lbs of air in tank I am able to maintain surface buoyancy with light finning.
...

If what you said is accurate, you are definitely over weightted by a lot. At the beginning of the dive with full tank, you should be over weighted by the weight of your gas. In case of HP100, it is 8lb. Hollis S25 fully inflated, 25lb-8lb = 17lb positive, should keep you on surface with head high out of water comfortably without any finning at all. Not to mention when tank is at 500psi, the entire 25lb is positive to float you. I can't imagine you need light finning.

What really puzzle me is your weight overall. HP100 empty is -2lb, OMS slip is neutral, regulator ~2lb, SS plate 6lb. That is total of -10lb. You said you are a little negative but can control by breather, so you are more or less neutral with full breath. A 5mm suit is easily +10lb. So even with empty wing, you should just float on surface although head may not be out of water. Add that 25lb from your wing, you should float very high with head out.

What other gears do you have on your rig?? If you are into DIR type of setup, maybe it is time to find a local DIR diver to look at your weight

 

[PfcAJ]

I read through this and what keeps coming to mind is the difference between overweighted and negative.

If you can't hold a safety stop with the steel tank and a Kydex plate, you are UNDERWEIGHTED. Which suggests that, with the steel plate, you may be PROPERLY weighted . . . but with the compression of the suit at depth, and a tank full of gas, you are very NEGATIVE and can't swim that up. There is no good solution to that problem, because you can't dive underweighted, and it's not a good idea to dive an unbalanced rig that you can't swim up. This is why my agency recommends dry suits for deep dives in cooler water. Not only does the dry suit not lose buoyancy at depth the way thick wetsuits do, you are likely to have to carry weight to sink it, so if it floods, you have weight you can ditch. In addition, it's very unlikely that both your dry suit AND your wing would fail on the same dive.

So Lynne is probably right here regarding suit compression being a factor. However, you can wear an aluminum plate with enough DITCHABLE weight to hold your 10ft stop with empty tanks. If your wing fails, you can then drop that weight so you can swim up.

Ditchable weight is a thing in some situations. OP, it might be for you. Experiment.

 

[DiveDaddyDale]

"Even with an empty wing you should be able to float at the surface"...(with my current set-up).

That is exactly the point I am making, not only can I not float a the surface with an empty wing (I immediately sink like a rock unless finning very hard), but even w my 25lb wing fully inflated, I have to moderately fin to keep head above water at the surface.

Hard to believe, I know, but true. Mask, fins, DIR HOG set-up, compass, computer, steel bp, steel 100 tank, 5mm full suit, 5mm booties, small DIR style knife, NO weight and I sink...crazy.