Suggestions needed...

[wedivebc]

Of course they enjoy it - they can't evaluate the risks. See the comment below about "cool" divers.

This is the worst type of moneygrabbing - just like the cigarette manufacturers - get them hooked on our brand first.

And if they can't be counted on in an emergency as a buddy then the responsible adult is effectively diving solo and being irresponsible.

Quote from an article by Dr. David Sawatzky
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The remaining concerns with children and young teenagers diving are primarily psychological. Can they truly appreciate the dangers of diving and learn how to react appropriately in an emergency? Kids can be extremely 'cool' divers, because they have absolutely no idea that what they are doing can be dangerous! To understand the dangers of diving, you have to be able to understand the gas laws, do some simple mathematics, and understand some basic anatomy and physiology as it relates to diving. It has been my personal experience that most children have trouble with these concepts until they are at least 12 or 13 years old. Children grow up and mature at vastly different rates. Therefore, it is impossible to determine an exact age when they can be safely taught to dive. The bottom line is that they have to have the physical size as well as the mental and emotional maturity to not only understand the dangers of diving and take care of themselves in an emergency, they must be able to assist their dive buddy. There should be only one standard to be certified as a diver and therefore, younger divers should meet the same standards as adults.

All divers must have good judgment, responsibility, attention to detail and respect for rules. Many teenagers have problems in these areas. These limitations really determine the minimum age to take up diving.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I completely agree with Dr Sawatzky's position on this and I don't believe every 12yo or even every 16yo is mature enough to persue the sport of diving. They should be made aware of the dangers and they should be physically and mentally as capable as a new adult diver.
I also read that link to the DAN report. Very informative and I hope Donnie reads it and appreciates he might not be ready to dive.

cheers,

 

[jbd]

As has been noted elsewhere on scubaboard when this topic has been discussed in the past---there are some adults who are not mature(responsible) enough to dive.

At this time NAUI does accept teaching kids under the age of 12. I'm in favor of that and personally inclined as an instructor to lean more towards 15 for some of the reasons pointed out in the first link provided by miketsp. There are kids whose parents feel they are up to the task of learning to dive and there is no law against it. In these cases, I feel that the instructor absolutely must excercise extra care in ascertaining the comprehension of material by the young student. Being "cool" in the water doesn't count by itself. IMHO not only must the young student know the basic rules but he/she needs to understand the principles which lay the foundation or basis for those rules. More simply put, they must understand the laws of physics that apply to diving. From ages 10 to 13 many of them have had no prior exposure to this stuff in school so the burden falls squarely on the scuba instructor to teach them this material. Kids learn pretty fast for the most part but they cannot learn what is not presented to them in a manner they can understand.

 

[jbd]

Here's an idea JBD from the board had given me to use while teaching different concepts. It may help your son understand the concept of pressure and volume.

Go to your local farm supply store (Tractor Supply, etc) or veterinarian (probably large animal) and buy a 60 ml (or larger) veterinary syringe. You do not need a needle. Buy a bag of mini marshmallows if you have the 60 ml syringe, a larger syringe can accomodate a regular size marshmallow.

While you can seal the end of the syringe where the needle attaches I prefer to leave it open and cover it with my finger while operating the plunger so I can demonstrate both increasing and decreasing pressure. It may be easier for him to understand the concept if you re-number the ml marks on the syringe so depressing the plunger actually indicates a higher number as a depth gauge would when descending. (Ex: My 60 ml syringe is numbered in 10 ml increments with 10 being close to the needle and 60 close to the plunger. Use a marker to make the 10 ml mark close to the plunger and the 60 ml mark close to the needle. You can draw a smiley face on the black part of the plunger to indicate the diver and a line on the syringe body to indicate the surface of the water.)

How to use this:
Remove the plunger and place 3 or 4 mini marshmallows in the syringe. Replace the plunger and line your "diver" up with the mark indicating the surface. Explain that the marshmallows represent air in a balloon your diver is carrying and as your diver descends the pressure increases both on the balloon and the diver.

Place your finger over the needle attachment opening and slowly depress the plunger while having your son watch what happens to the marshmallows. Have your son try it so he can feel the increase in pressure while watching the marshmallows (you have to press quite hard on the plunger after a while).

You can also use this to demonstrate what happens to the "balloon" as a diver ascends from depth.
Set-up: Put 1 or 2 mini marshmallows in the bottom and push the plunger down until it barely touches them.
Explain: Diver fills a balloon at depth then ascends with it.
Demonstration: Put your finger over the needle attachment hole and pull the plunger away from the marshmallows, your depth marks on the needle indicate that your diver is ascending. See what the marshmallows do and explain that if they were a balloon they would eventually rupture. Let your son play with the syringe until he can explain the concepts to you.

Good luck, hope this helps! Fresh marshmallows work best!
Ber :lilbunny:

This can also be used to demonstrate what effect increasing or decreasing pressure does in regards to free phase gas(bubbles) in tissues. Couple this with the bottle of carbonated beverage to demo the results of rapid deompression and hence the need for a slow controlled ascent to the surface.

 

[Maresreg]

when i took my O/W classes i bought the book and the cd/rom for my computer and having both really helped me to understand things alot better. maybe they have a cd/rom for that class as well .

To All,

I have been diving since 1989... and my oldest son has been "Chomping at the Bit" to learn how to dive himself.

Watching him grow up... I have had a few concerns about the development of his learning. His biggest problem is that he is good at most everything that he does. BUT!... when he runs into something that he isn't very good at... or is HARD to do... he loses interest and wants to quite!

Well... he is now 11 years old, and I signed him up for "Junior Open Water" Classes. Last night was his first night in class and all we did was "Paper Work"... in which he "Signed" his first forms! (He was pretty excited!) He was then given instructions to read "Chapter 1" by next Thursday. (06/24)

Once we got home... he dove into his book... and immediately started having troubles! Some of the words were kinda big, and he was having a difficult time understanding the principles behind compression of air volume due to the weight and density of water.

Well... the tears started flowing, as he realized that he was involved in something that resembles "Hard". I could see that he was getting very nervous... and (I may be mistaken... but,) I think the thought of "quitting" may have even crossed his mind.

I assured him that it will get easier, and that we would do it together. He smiled and went to bed.

So... does anyone have any suggestion? I need to keep his interest up and keep him "wanting" to learn. Any ideas on how to better explain the basic principles? I thought I was doing pretty good... but he seemed to really be in a "fog" last night.

I know he will do very well with the skills... but he is really struggling with his book. I'm not going to let him quite... but this may be a very long "5 weeks".

So... any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Have a great day!

Donnie

 

[Donnie]

Ber Rabbit & jbd,

Thanks for the wonderful suggestion!!!!!!!!! It worked great and the whole family really enjoyed the demonstration!!! (My Wife purchased two of the syringes... because they also make fantastic water shooters!) My son is doing great with his studies today and has a very good grasp on the material he is reading! Thanks again for the great suggestion!!!

Maresreg,

Yes... we have the videos, and will use them later tonight to solidify the information he has gained thus far!


To those who feel as though I am being "Totally Irresponsible",

I did not expect that there would be those who would feel the need to vomit-up their personal opinions about my decision to have my son complete the "Junior Open Water" course. And... as we all know, "Opinions are like belly buttons... everybody has at least one."

So... In the spirit of keeping an open mind... I read the article and have come to the conclusion that, (although I'm sure very brilliant at times,) Dr. Sawatzky has a definitive knack for the painfully obvious. It could be argued that Dr. Sawatzky's article was used as "Filler Material" for a dive magazine, since it only states information that should be basic for even the most novice diver.

I have only stated a few of the reasons for my decision to allow my son to complete the "Junior Open Water" course. It is not necessary for me to state or justify my decision. Suffice it to say that your comment was made out of ignorance to my situation. I simply asked for "Suggestions" not "Opinions". A wise opinion can only be made when all of the facts are known. I'm sure you meant well... but your opinion bore no grounds to my question. Thanks for your input anyway.

What is so wonderful about this web site is that there are those who bring constructive suggestions to the table and leave personal opinions behind. (For the most part...)

I have spent most of my time reading many of the "helpful" suggestions and comments that are made by the fine people on this web site, but have yet to be a regular contributor. Maybe as time allows... I can do more in the near future.

Thanks again for all of your wonderful suggestion!!!!

Have a great day!

Donnie

 

[miketsp]

To those who feel as though I am being "Totally Irresponsible",

I did not expect that there would be those who would feel the need to vomit-up their personal opinions about my decision to have my son complete the "Junior Open Water" course. And... as we all know, "Opinions are like belly buttons... everybody has at least one."

Diving is a dangerous sport if not approached with the right attitude.

My "opinion" was stated out of concern for your child.

Over the last 34 years I have seen many parents that believe that their child is exceptional and think the junior diving limits are just to be obeyed during the course.

My opinion wasn't rude, just blunt, and just because it doesn't support the line of action you are taking, then it was "vomited up".

I supplied you with references to respected opinions.

Unfortunately we see all too often on this board people coming with irresponsible ideas, looking for approval and then getting upset when somebody states the obvious.

 

[Xtreme]

Donnie,

I feel your pain. My son has the same trouble focusing on things. Fortunately everyone here has posted some good advice. I'm going to try their advice with my son and I hope as well as with your son it works. Good Luck

 

[Donnie]

Mikestp,

Thank you for your sincere concern for the safety of my Son. Scuba Diving does have many inherent dangers, and many individuals die every year because of these dangers. I would never disagree with you on this point.

I have also noticed those same individuals that you spoke of, who come to this forum seeking the approval of others, for an idea that they are not sure of themselves. I do not need the approval of anyone for my decision. If I did need the approval of anyone... it would be "PADI". And... "Yes"... I have their approval.

Thank you for the article. Unfortunately... the article lacked the substance and depth of instruction that my "Dive Master" has provided to both me and my Son, over the past two years, while making my decision. I'm sure I would have found the article much more interesting if I had been sitting in the Dentist's Office waiting for my pending "Root Canal". But your intentions were noble... Thank you!

Is my Son "Exceptional?" Only the amount of Love I have for my Son is "Exceptional". Beyond that... He is just a kid trying to determine what he wants to do with his life. The rules for diving must never end once a diver leaves the pool. (This is how Divers die.)

The area in which I live offers many Diving opportunities... combined with the option of heading over to the Oregon Coast, for weekend excursions make the Pacific Northwest a great place to explore. "Fortunately" for my Son... I have already determined that non of these opportunities will be available to him for several more years.

Instead, the community that I live in has about 20 kids who are between the ages of 8 and 15 years old who belong to the "PADI Seals". At least once a month, they gather at the local pool and take part in many activities that emulate some of the advance courses that you and I can enjoy in the open water. (I.E., "Night Dives", "Navigation", "Rescue Techniques"... ect... ect...)

These pool sessions are supervised by a Dive Master (who is also in the pool,) as well as the parents, who are also certified. (Who also have the option of getting in the pool with the kids.) My Wife has expressed a great interest in Diving because of the programs that have been developed by the "PADI Seals". So... in time... my hopes are that my whole family will be heavily involved in Scuba Diving.

I suppose encouraging my Son to play "Video Games" would be safer than teaching him how to Scuba Dive... but then someone would be correct in calling me "Irresponsible". :11:

So... Again... Thank you for your concern!

Xtreme,

Due to the helpful advice of the members of this forum, I was able to use their ideas and turn on the light for my Son. Yesterday was a great day for my Son, who has been able to demonstrate the principles of "Boyles Law" and has a clear understanding!

Now that he has been exposed to many of the "Bigger" words... he is moving ahead much faster and his enthusiasm has "Sky Rocketed!!!" Not only that... I'm pretty sure that my Wife and I had just as much fun playing with the marshmallows in the syringe, as my Son did! (My German Shepard made out like a bandit with all of the "shriveled" marshmallows!)

For my Son and I... things are really turning out great! (Fantastic people on this forum ya know!)

Have a great day!

Donnie

 

[voop]

Ber Rabbit & jbd,

<SNIP>

To those who feel as though I am being "Totally Irresponsible",

I did not expect that there would be those who would feel the need to vomit-up their personal opinions about my decision to have my son complete the "Junior Open Water" course. And... as we all know, "Opinions are like belly buttons... everybody has at least one."

So... In the spirit of keeping an open mind... I read the article and have come to the conclusion that, (although I'm sure very brilliant at times,) Dr. Sawatzky has a definitive knack for the painfully obvious. It could be argued that Dr. Sawatzky's article was used as "Filler Material" for a dive magazine, since it only states information that should be basic for even the most novice diver.

I have only stated a few of the reasons for my decision to allow my son to complete the "Junior Open Water" course. It is not necessary for me to state or justify my decision. Suffice it to say that your comment was made out of ignorance to my situation. I simply asked for "Suggestions" not "Opinions". A wise opinion can only be made when all of the facts are known. I'm sure you meant well... but your opinion bore no grounds to my question. Thanks for your input anyway.

What is so wonderful about this web site is that there are those who bring constructive suggestions to the table and leave personal opinions behind. (For the most part...)

I have spent most of my time reading many of the "helpful" suggestions and comments that are made by the fine people on this web site, but have yet to be a regular contributor. Maybe as time allows... I can do more in the near future.

Thanks again for all of your wonderful suggestion!!!!

Have a great day!

Donnie

Donnie,

First of all, good luck to both you and your son. I think it's wonderful when father and son can develop a common interrest, and I hope that you'll be enjoying this together for years to come.

As for the being irresponsible part....I cannot speak for the reasons why other people disagree with the certification age limit(s), but I can share my own thoughts on this topic. Let me say, though, that I do not think that your having your son get a jr. certification is irresponsible.

The thing is: as an instructor I am concerned with any of my scuba student's safety. With younger students even moreso since, as has been pointed out, kids are just on a different developmental stage than adults. Yet virtually *nothing* was ever taught to me about teaching kids when I was training to become an instructor. What's worse: my day-job involves teaching technical courses to adults, who're supposed to comprehend technical stuff - or to speak up if they don't. When teaching kids, you can't just count on a technical or abstract concept being grasped, nor that they pay attention throughout the class nor that they speak up if they don't grasp things. And, as we know, what you don't know can, and often will, come back and bite really hard.....

So what I would be concerned about as a scuba instructor is not if the kid being able to learn to dive, or if the parents are being responsible or not. What I am concerned about is MY ABILITY to actually teach in the way that kids should be taught. I honestly don't know how to do it, and I do not want to take chances and then just "do it anyways". So I decided for myself, that I would not be training kids. I would simply not trust that I could do a good enough job at it.

Of course, it would be easier for me to say "Kids can't learn safely how to dive, they're too young/immature to grasp such concepts". For me, however, it's clear that I can't feel comfortable teaching kids because I don't know how to do it. On the flip side, I have a good friend, who's also a scuba instructor. She teaches third grade for a living, scuba on the side. Since she knows both the subject matter of scuba and the way you teach to kids, she's just wonderful at it. From what I've seen her jr. certified divers come out with everything they need to be safe divers -- both from the classrom and pool.

So to me, it basically comes down to the instructor: if he/she can get in sync with the kid, communicate in the right ways to get the information through etc. If yes, then I believe that teaching diving to a kid can be safe.

On the "diving with your kid" issue, I would reccomend to look at and prep for such dives as if they are essentially "solo dives" -- or perhaps as "DM guiding a scuba diver" type dives. By that I mean that you should be self-sufficient (should something happen to you), and able to keep at least 1.5 eyes on the kid (should something happen to him).

I'm glad that the tricks and tips for explaining abstract concepts (laws of physics etc) that you've gotten have worked, and that your kid is moving on in his course. Let's know how it all goes so we can celebrate with you when he draws his first breaths under water and then, later, when he gets his certification.

Cheers!

 

[pasley]

You know your child best as to their maturity and ability to dive. From what you describe, I would argue that the time to learn to dive is not yet come to your child.

Cnildren, particularly teenagers tend to believe they are invincible. They act first, then think, and they usally think it can not happen to them.

Here is a news story from my local dive area from last week about a 15 year old, dead because of a little water in his mask:

San Pedro teen's diving death hits family hard
SERVICES: David Gilman, 15, died suddenly after a scuba accident off Rancho Palos Verdes. A memorial geared for teens will be tonight.

By Larry Altman, Daily Breeze

A San Pedro teen who transformed quickly from a shy, quiet student to a talkative comedian admired by his teachers will be remembered tonight at services to mark his accidental death.

David Gilman, a 15-year-old student at the San Pedro High School Police Magnet, drowned Sunday evening while scuba diving with his father near the former Marineland site off the Rancho Palos Verdes coast.

"His loss is mind-boggling," said Afshin Rahmanou, David's 2003 science teacher at Dana Middle School in San Pedro. "I was really devastated."

David, who became a certified scuba diver a few weeks ago, and his father, Barry, were diving about 50 yards out when the teen apparently panicked after water entered his mask.

"I dove 10 feet, looked back and he was fine," his father said. "I turned around and dove another 5 or so feet and turned around and he was gone."

The father swam to his son, who was panicked and floundering, and gave him his air hose. The boy grabbed his father around the neck and they sank, forcing the father to separate himself to breathe.

Gilman said he pulled his son from the water, dropped the weights off his son's suit, and breathed for him as he pulled him to shore. The boy was unconscious, but appeared to have good color while paramedics treated him and flew him to the hospital.

"I thought he was going to be OK at that point," Gilman said. "We drove to Harbor General. We fully expected to have things looking up there. I became hysterical when we got there."

Coroner's officials said David died of drowning as a result of an air embolism.

His death shocked those who in the last year saw the 6-foot-2-inch young man blossom, develop friends and mature.