Switching gas mixes at 100'

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So don't rely on the computer as a nanny.

If you have the skill to actually dive safely at 100+ feet, and you have the skill to perform gas switches at that level, then you should certainly have the skill and presence of mind to not violate MOD. And 1.4 on EAN32 is ~110, and 1.6 is ~130. Seems like a pretty fair margin to me. If you can't maintain between 100 and 130ft, take the EAN off your back.

Thanks for the condescenscion. Glad you're completely ok working it all out on tables and in your head. Those nanny computers, eh? What a waste of time.

Whatever, I was making a basic point about being aware of your PO2 at depths you should be aware of. If you can't even work on that basis it's pointless even engaging you.
 
Thanks for the condescenscion. Glad you're completely ok working it all out on tables and in your head. Those nanny computers, eh? What a waste of time.

Whatever, I was making a basic point about being aware of your PO2 at depths you should be aware of. If you can't even work on that basis it's pointless even engaging you.

Anyone who relies on a computer to beep at them when their po2 gets too high is an idiot.
 
From a procedural standpoint, dives involving gas switches are normally made with the greater percentage of oxygen and lower percentage of nitrogen being used as the deco gas. For example, switching from gases like trimix, nitrox or air used in the deeper portion of the dive to gases such as 32% nitrox, 50% nitrox or 100% oxygen will aid in decompression by reducing the amount of inspired nitrogen allowing more nitrogen to be eliminated through respiration as a diver ascends. Switching to a higher percentage of oxygen and lower percentage of nitrogen will also change the gradient and the driving force from a decompression theory standpoint with the gradient being theoretically more favorable if switching to gases with lower nitrogen percentages as pressure on the tissues is reduced during ascent. This is usually a more advantageous and safer gas switch than switching to a higher nitrogen percentage. However, even for dives in which a gas switch is planned to accelerate the decompression, it is possible to lose the deco gas and find yourself decompressing on your back gas or on another gas source. The other gas source might be air. This would be a fairly common scenario for a recreational diver in an emergency. You can imagine a diver at 100 feet on nitrox running low on gas during a wreck dive in Florida and gaining the attention of another diver using air. Once the emergency is handled the nitrox diver ascends breathing air and should probably lengthen safety stop times as a precaution for avoiding DCS.

As for using air over nitrox to lengthen dive time, when running the possible strategies on V-Planner (nominal conservative settings), we can compare the following dives:

If we use 32% nitrox for 20 minutes at 100 feet then switch to air for 10 minutes to extend our bottom time and ascend on air, V-Planner asks us to do a 40 second mandatory decompression stop at 30 feet, another mandatory deco stop for 3 minutes at 20 feet and finally a mandatory deco stop for 7 minutes at 10 feet.

Reversing that to using air first for 10 minutes at 100 feet then 32% nitrox for 20 minutes at 100 feet and ascending on the nitrox 32%, V-Planner asks us for a mandatory 2 minute decompression stop at 10 feet.

Had you made that dive, you would have been better off using the pony bottle first. Not only that, but if you encountered a problem such as a bcd malfunction and you needed to lighten your load, you could shed the pony bottle and have the greatest amount of gas saved for the end of the dive on your back. Most divers tend to exhaust their primary gas supplies and then switch to a pony. But, one technique for deep diving is to carry a stage bottle and use that for the bottom portion of the dive leaving the gas on your back untouched and employing another bottle or other bottles for decompression.

You did the correct thing by not diving without adequate training and understanding. It's commendable to be able to say, "No thanks!" when faced with peer pressure. Sometimes our friends mean well, but if we mean anything to our friends we always hope they'll be supportive and understanding when we thumb a dive whether underwater or at the surface.

Trace,
I always appreciate your clear and comprehensive answers. Thanks for wading in on this one!

By the way, great talking to you yesterday at Dutch! You're always enlightening.
All the best,
Geoff
 
Did you read the OP before answering?
"My AL 80 held nitrox 32% and the pony just held air."

Hmm :( I did read the OP, but apparently not very thoroughly; thanks
 
A lot of people on here are talking about switching to EAN for the ascent, which makes sense in basic theory - higher 02 content = faster off gassing. Fair enough. However as wediveBC pointed out nitrox is really only advantageous when its P02 is highest 1.4 or 1.6. Switching to 32% nitrox for an ascent from 100ft really doesn't make sense since you're starting with a P02 of 1.3 ( already losing the advantage) and then rapidly decreasing that. Since in NDL diving the only stop you're likely to do is a safety stop at around 15ft the major driving force for offgassing is the reduction in ambient pressure rather than the artificially increased gradient afforded by breathing a higher 02 content. The only time nitrox would be benefiting you would be right when you make the switch, assuming that you're switching at the MOD for the nitrox and since we're talking NDL diving, you'd only have this advantage for a very brief time. So bottom line: Advantage of switching from air to nitrox for an ascent in a recreational dive = diddly squat.

Personally if I had to make a switch between air and nitrox for a recreational dive, I would use air for the ascent. Diving nitrox at depth would reduce the overall nitrogen loading in my tissues, making for easier off gassing. Switching to air would provide me with a quick spike in PN2 but that would be quickly reduced as I ascended and wouldn't present much of an issue as I started off gassing. Depending on how close to my NDL I was I might stay an extra minute or so at 10ft. This is if I HAD to switch, I don't really see why anyone would bother.

You seem to be missing the point that the pony has a limited capacity and will only last for the descent and a small proportion of the bottom phase of the dive (assuming you are not planning on completely draining it before switching!). You will therefore be switching to EAN whilst still at 100ft and probably spend a fair proportion of your bottom time on it (particularly if you hold back some of the pony as an emergency reserve). As such you are not simply switching to the EAN for the ascent, but using it throughout the majority of your dive, and the ascent.

Also I would take issue with the statement:
"nitrox is really only advantageous when its P02 is highest 1.4 or 1.6."
I would contend that nitrox does have an advantage even when the PO2 is below 1.4. Simply get out some tables and do a comparison such as I did on VPlanner:

100ft for 22 min on air requires 10 min of deco
100ft for 22 min on EAN 28 (PO2 of 1.1) requires no deco.

The advantage of EAN at percentages where the PO2 is below 1.4 should be apparent to anyone who has done a basic nitrox course. Admittedly there would be some truth in the above statement if we were ONLY talking about the ascent and deco phase. However it would certainly not be part of my planning to suck the pony dry before switching - and even if you did that you would still spend a reasonable time on the EAN.
 
Wouldn't what you suggest leave the OP somewhat vulnerable to getting the PO2 level on the wrong side of safe? If the planned dive was around 100ft, then it wouldn't leave a lot of head room on EAN32 if they strayed down a little further - which would be no problem except your computer's not telling you you're between the 1.4 and 1.6 margins???

Well he must take care of that himself, as the computer would not know it.
Actually all his friends computer should also alert if he dive with them and they use the same mix.

I never hear my computer beeping so I always take care of it myself. If I am not sure I take less O2 to have some space.
 
You seem to be missing the point that the pony has a limited capacity and will only last for the descent and a small proportion of the bottom phase of the dive (assuming you are not planning on completely draining it before switching!). You will therefore be switching to EAN whilst still at 100ft and probably spend a fair proportion of your bottom time on it (particularly if you hold back some of the pony as an emergency reserve). As such you are not simply switching to the EAN for the ascent, but using it throughout the majority of your dive, and the ascent.

Also I would take issue with the statement:
"nitrox is really only advantageous when its P02 is highest 1.4 or 1.6."
I would contend that nitrox does have an advantage even when the PO2 is below 1.4. Simply get out some tables and do a comparison such as I did on VPlanner:

100ft for 22 min on air requires 10 min of deco
100ft for 22 min on EAN 28 (PO2 of 1.1) requires no deco.

The advantage of EAN at percentages where the PO2 is below 1.4 should be apparent to anyone who has done a basic nitrox course. Admittedly there would be some truth in the above statement if we were ONLY talking about the ascent and deco phase. However it would certainly not be part of my planning to suck the pony dry before switching - and even if you did that you would still spend a reasonable time on the EAN.

I was in fact addressing switching to EAN for the ascent only since others were tooting the "higher 02 content for ascent" horn, which makes sense for deco dives w/ appropriate gasses but not for recreational dives with recreational nitrox blends.

Yes there are advantages to diving EAN with a P02 below 1.4, but only if you're going to be hanging around that P02 and using it properly and the lower the P02 the lower the advantage.

IF I were to be doing the aforementioned then I would start with the pony and then switch to EAN as well and let the off gassing begin. But I wouldn't do the dive because it's, well, stupid.
Anyway, I think we probably agree with each other we just have a miss communication somewhere.

Finally; 10 minutes deco for 22 minutes at 100ft! Ouch.
 
Simply get out some tables and do a comparison such as I did on VPlanner:

100ft for 22 min on air requires 10 min of deco
100ft for 22 min on EAN 28 (PO2 of 1.1) requires no deco.
Really? I don't know anything about V-Planner - is it ultra-conservative, or is that pretty standard? After the 10 minutes deco, would you be right to dive again, given a surface interval, or would that be it for the day?
 
VPlanner tends to be quite conservative for relatively shallow short dives, but has been criticised by some for not being conservative enough for long deep decompression diving. However straight Buhlmann Tables would give 5 min deco for this dive, and ZPlanner (Buhlmann based) gives 7 min. Also if you set VPlanner to a last stop depth of 3m (instead of the 6m I have it usually set on) then this reduces the total deco time to 8 min.

I guess, given that some tables and computers allow for an NDL of 20 min at 100ft, 5 - 10 min of deco may sound like a fair penalty for going over the limit by only 2 min. But keep in mind that many tables nowdays would only allow 17 min NDL at 10 ft so going by that you would be 5 min over the limit for a 22 min bottom time.

Of course keep in mind that if you were doing a 100ft dive you would no doubt do at least a 5 min safety stop anyway, so the required deco isn't that much beyond what you do anyway on a non-deco dive.

As far as doing a second dive many people would be quite happy to do a second dive given that in the scheme of things this would be pretty much a 'weenie' deco dive. This would be a matter of personal choice for the individual. The longer the surface interval the better.
 

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