"Term limits" on certifications

[PugetDiver]

Please clarify?

I would imagine that the amount of diver deaths due to years of diving inactivity before the accident is pretty low. For this reason, the certification agencies really have no incentive to change. Sorry if I was a little unclear.

 

[Valwood1]

It's not about policing, it's about the death of divers not willing to regulate themselves. If the honour system was working, would we have few diver deaths? Disclaimer - I'm from a socialist country

This thread is interesting to me because increased regulation seems at odds with both the oft-here-expressed notion that each diver is wholly responsible for himself, and, IMHO, the resulting frequent first response to "incident" reports that often reads like "Well, what did the idiot diver do wrong to create the problem?"

I think that recertification/retesting is sorta like required continuing professional education -- the ones who are conscientious will participate in CE regardless of requirements, and the ones who are not will read newspapers during the CE sessions and get absolutely nothing out of them.

 

[mrobinson]

This thread is interesting to me because increased regulation seems at odds with both the oft-here-expressed notion that each diver is wholly responsible for himself, and, IMHO, the resulting frequent first response to "incident" reports that often reads like "Well, what did the idiot diver do wrong to create the problem?"

I think that recertification/retesting is sorta like required continuing professional education -- the ones who are conscientious will participate in CE regardless of requirements, and the ones who are not will read newspapers during the CE sessions and get absolutely nothing out of them.

I see where you're going with this. Part of that debate, IMHO, is whether or not the dive industry is accidentally leading people to believe they have less personal responsibilty then they should. If part of the divers believe it's a divemaster responsiblity to look after them, shouldn't we protect ourselves, the dive industry, and these types of divers by getting them recertified?

 

[markfm]

I agree with Valwood1 wholeheartedly. I'm a hiker/backpacker. I maintain my skills, orienteer, carry safety gear, keep things in shape. Others don't -- I read about them in the annual reports from the parks, both fatalities and near misses.

Now hiking is supposed to be inherently more benign, yet people who are out of shape (I mean for the activity, not by some external societal standard) or don't care about their gear do get in regular trouble. Diving is something where the ingoing assumption is one of risk, and I doubt PADI is unique in actually trying to let people know that it is life support equipment. A responsible person is going to do their best to maintain their gear, get in enough diving and/or CE (I like courses, but I'm a techie), know their limits; recerts for the responsible person are going to waste $, and people who don't give a hoot will continue to get in trouble long after we've all shuffled off this mortal coil.

 

[knotical]

In response to diver deaths, in 2002 the government of Quebec started requiring renewal of scuba certifications.
Some info here: http://www.total-diving.com/en/qcpermit.htm#info
In a sense, Quebec is conducting a real-life experiment on drbill’s suggestion. Does anyone have any early data on whether the death rate has improved?

 

[jaycanwk]

"".........As far as the cop, do you know how much it costs to get one of those cop outfits dry cleaned? Get it wet just becouse it's there job, ya right!...I lit a cop up on camera one night in Sacramento for doing the very same thing. Watch a gal walk into the river and drown herself. He wasen't even damp! I had to wait for the DART team to show up and they found her body in 30 seconds. She was still right there. If I would have know that, Id have been in the river..........""

Actually, it is not the cop's job, as they are usually not trained for water rescue. Additionally, Paramedics usually arn't trained either. I used to be a Lifeguard for a number of years and the EMS personal would not take over untill we had the victim out of the water.

 

[drbill]

I received further information on this incident today, although there are contradictory "details." Apparently it was a woman diver who died. She was diving either with a husband, or according to some reports, her fiancee. Tragically the woman's pre-teen daughter was sitting on the rocks by the park and observed this happen.

On top of this I was told that the couple were planning a dive trip together, but hadn't dived in about a year. They had come over to Catalina to practice their skills before the trip. I'm not sure why they chose to dive so late in the evening, or even whether that was their first dive of the day. What a sad story.

As for requiring a logbook to verify current skills and experience, I was asked to provide such nearly everywhere I dived in Asia, Australia and the South Pacific. Although it was a pain, I understood since my c-card dated back to the 60's and they had no direct knowledge of my skills level. It was also due in part to the fact that many young (and foreign) divemasters are not familiar with the Los Angeles County certification. Once I demonstrated my skills, the DM's were satisfied. Why should it be required in some so-called "third world" countries and not in the States?

No question that personal responsibility enters into the equation. Since I dive solo 80% of the time, I am very aware of that. However, I have encountered so many divers who would refuse suggested refresher courses or even seemed proud of the fact they hadn't dive "since the 1980's). I think the industry needs to step in.

I am also aware that some (if not all) agencies require a swim test of varying distances for certification. I am equally aware that people can "pass" this requirement if their instructor doesn't actually require it, or accepts a minimal level of performance.

When I got certified, you did every step in the program (a 2-3 week course as I remember) and if the instructor wasn't satisfied with your performance, you didn't pass. I know I had to redo a few things, including compass navigation when I finally got the much dreaded PADI AOW card in Australia so people would let me dive without questioning my skills level.

As for the police not responding, yes I agree it may not be their job. It wasn't the job of the guy who dove in to rescue the diver, either. I find it hard to accept that out of 5-6 policemen, none attempted a rescue. When one was asked why he didn't, his response was "I'm too fat." Another area where "recertification" and physical ability standards should be considered. And I am not anti-cop... I appreciate their presence on our island and their enforcement when it is required.

We do not station lifeguards at the dive park. It is private property (as is neighboring Descanso Beach). It would have been great if we could. I have heard from several sources that the individual who dove in to rescue the woman was one of our City firemen (and an experienced diver) who was off-duty and out of uniform when he came on the scene. Thanks, Dave!

Dr. Bill

 

[drbill]

90 deaths per year globally? Interesting. I had heard we had as many as 12 a year here in the waters off Catalina.

I think it is important to recognize that lowering the number of deaths is not the only measure of the effectiveness of a recertification program like I am suggesting. These are just the "worst case" scenario. Whenever a rescue is required to extricate an unskilled or unfit diver from a situation, it places at least two people in jeopardy. Of course these statistics are generally not recorded, so we'd have litlle or no basis for measuring the impact on them.

Dr. Bill

 

[markfm]

drbill -- if you meant reviewing someone's log book, as opposed to having some kind of "official" stamps, whatever/however that would work, I agree with you. Some kind of refresher/checkout would be reasonable.

 

[Chad_Ordelheide]

Bureaucracy! I'm totally against making recertification mandatory! Wise, yes, mandatory no! Why should I have to pay for someone else's ignorance? As with most diving accidents the diver was unaware and irresponsible. Those same divers would find ways to get around the policy. They would take the cheapest re cert course...and probably sleep through it! I'm a doctor and I like what Valwood said! CE courses! Sure their required, but if your a good doc they shouldn't need to be! Once again it all comes back to DIVER RESPONSIBILITY! We all know what OSHA, ADA and Insurance companies have done to health care. Its starts by trying to enforcing common sense and then degrades into another useless hoop that just makes everyone mad they have to jump through it!

I can see it now. The course starts out as a simple check of the log book. Then it changes to checking the log book and putting your gear together. Then dive companies realize they could charge for this "refresher course". Since the above only takes a few minutes they decide to throw in a lecture to make the course your now PAYING for worthwhile! Truthfully, I just want to dive. Diving is like riding a bike! If the bike doesn't change you could probably still ride it in a few years. If in few years everyone riding unicycles, maybe you better rethink jumping on for a ride. If you have never seen a BC before, or are asking why they now have two regulator??? Maybe you should rethink jumping in the ocean.

Hmmmm, do I deserve change for my two cents

P.S. No matter what we do, there will still be those who need a pick and shovel to find their IQ's.