The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

[bebo]

Let's take a deep breath......... let's be rational.

This should not be a matter of who's right or wrong, but finding the truth. And if I've learned anything is that truth is usually found in the middle when you have two arguing sides.

I don't know the details that go around a scuba gear retailer nor about the huge market online. Heck, I'm new in the sport. I barely know the difference between first and second stage!!! But what I do know about is being a client with the culture of being a client. Not all retail stores are created equal nor all owners treat their customers the same way. Not all online stores treat their customers the same nor have the same prices.

As I see it, business of any kind involve many aspects. Price undoubtedly, plays an important role in any client-provider relationship. But as most things in life, this is not a unidimensional realtionship. Quality of service/products, personalized attention, speed of service and a myriad of details make a difference between those who make it and those who don't. But the most important element, at least concerning to us the clients, is having the "culture" of being a client. If someone mistreat you at some store and /or are negligent in the service, you DON't HAVE to come back, even if that's the only store for thousands of miles. In fact you SHOULD NOT. The same way, if at the store, they treat you well, one should appreciate that, no matter if next door they sell it cheaper. At least that's the way I do it.

This should not be a matter of taking sides. This is not a war. I'm pretty sure that out there there are some decent LDS owners that take care of their customers. As well, there some people that should be doing something else. The same goes for the online stores. If you have a good relationship, cherish it and take care of it. If they mistreat you, boycott it, or at least don't visit them anymore. Very important, even when you are affected in any situation, try to be as impartial as possible.

PEACE.

 

[OneBrightGator]

It's very simple, an LDS should provide quality training, gas fills, equipment, maintaince and trips at reasonable prices, along with these pay items comes a center of the diving community and good advice on everything diving related including equipment, training and travel, so at the end of the day that extra money you paid gets you something extra in return. If they can't do it, then go online, but don't expect any of these freebies from your shop. IMO someone who buys their equipment online, then drags it into the shop and expects the employees to show them how their computer works or setup their reg is the lowest form of consumer, just a parasite.

A little story... One of our regular customers was getting his daughter certified, because she was getting certified he did the hand me down thing and needed a new regulator for himself, which he bought through us at a class discount and was also allowed to sit in on his daughter's class. He wanted some help with his configuration and since I was sitting in on the class during the videos he and I were in the back room swaping hoses, adjusting his harness, moving stuff around, basically just getting everything squared away, he needed another light and some bolt snaps to get it done, so he bought them in the store. We got everything finished and he brought his stuff out to the pool with the class and adjusted some things after diving it and seemed very pleased. I saw him out with his daughter the about a month after that, he thanked me again for my help.

Now, he paid more for the equipment he bought through us then he would have online, but he also got to sit in on the class for free, all the help he wanted for free and even got to go to the pool for free, I would say he got his money's worth.

Ben

 

[USMC Diver]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
Give me a break, USMC Diver, you have no earthly clue as to what you're talking about.



People don't own dive shops because they want to make easy money, they are only trying to make enough money to cover their shop expenses and pay their electric bills with equal markup of every other retail business in town with every other customer coming in and complaining about prices and "I can get this online for this much" and so on.

Please, give me a break. You are going to honestly sit hear and tell me that LDS owners go into buisness to "break even". Your joking right? I have never met one person that will go into ANY buisness "just to break even" "like everyone else in the town". That is DRIVEL. When I can buy something for 5 dollers RETAIL and someone else wants to sell it for 15 and they get it Wholesale then there is definetly money going into SOMEONES pockets. I am going to make sure it doesn't come out of mine.



What exactly do you want out of it? Dive classes aren't the money makers, everyone knows that, on top of that you're probably telling them all to buy their stuff online and screw the LDS, you should be lucky you're allowed in your LDS spouting drivel like this.


The LDS owner is my a diving partner of mine for starters. Second, all the students I bring are told to buy thier gear there, at the shop. I reinforce this because I am trying to help out the LDS. The philisophical debate and the practical application are wholly different things. What do I want out of it? Well, the store down the street offered me discounts for in-shop purchases. The owner said he would meet and beat any internet price. Loyalty now becomes the issue...I like the other guy.

13 dollars for PADIPros, not for Joe Average Diver and there's a reason, because Joe Average Diver CAN'T SIGN A PIC CARD so what good is it to him? $200 dollars for a class? Why don't you sit down and figure out how much renting the class space, shop insurance, pool space, equipment, repair, compressor and maintaince, instructor and his insurance would cost and you'd see you're paying about their cost, all while stiffing the instructor. Who cares if they have to buy a weightbelt? They are going to need one at some point, even if they buy a WI BC, and it's twenty freaking bucks, get over it.


I certainly hope average joe diver can't get or sign a pic card. I watched the LDS owner sell a PIC to a woman who had lost her card. He charged her 25 dollers for the card, after she had bought gear and some clothing. That is petty. Does the LDS owner really need the extra 12 dollers so bad that he had to infalte the price for the woman who was already spending in excess of 600 dollers?

Lets do just that, lets add it up

4 Students -- $1600
Class Space -- Free at local YMCA
Shop Insurance -- ???
Pool Space -- Free at local YMCA
Equipment -- 120 dollers (40 per day, hopefully this includes gear maintinance, if not bad buisness.)
Compressor and Maintinance -- ???
Instrutor -- 20 dollers per cert
Instructor INS -- He pays his own
Instrucor -- also good friend of mine, does not get stiffed. He gets speciality instructor fees paid for by the students as "tip".
OOps, almost forgot - PIC Card $13

So lets add that up.

1600
480 (Rental and prorate, equipment for 1 course)
80 (Instructor Fee)
52 (PIC CARD)
- 665 (shop insurance, and compressor, If 5000 per month, pro rate for 4 days)
________
+323


Not much, but then again that is for days of 100% profit and I increased the unknown amounts by an astronomical amount. And somehow, I think the LDS owner is making a little more than that gauging by his Yukon and the weekly personal dive trips to Belize and other places.

Now, who cares about the weight belt...your right. It is cheap and inconsequential. It is also called hidden fees by the rest of the world. If I say the class is 400 dollers then it is rude and petty to say...wellm you need to buy a weight belt too. that will be 20 bucks and you need to rent some weight, that will be whatever. Maybe the student has maxed out his credit card to take the course, maybe it is already too expensive for him, maybe he doesn't want to buy gear until he passes the course, maybe he will have an inner ear problem and be stuck with a freakin usless nylon strap with a plastic hangle...good for nothing.



Man, that is some sage advice. Get a clue before ranting and raving about something which you obviously have no experience in.

Ben

Working on getting that clue...

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
It's very simple, an LDS should provide quality training, gas fills, equipment, maintaince and trips at reasonable prices, along with these pay items comes a center of the diving community and good advice on everything diving related including equipment, training and travel, so at the end of the day that extra money you paid gets you something extra in return. If they can't do it, then go online, but don't expect any of these freebies from your shop. IMO someone who buys their equipment online, then drags it into the shop and expects the employees to show them how their computer works or setup their reg is the lowest form of consumer, just a parasite.

A little story... One of our regular customers was getting his daughter certified, because she was getting certified he did the hand me down thing and needed a new regulator for himself, which he bought through us at a class discount and was also allowed to sit in on his daughter's class. He wanted some help with his configuration and since I was sitting in on the class during the videos he and I were in the back room swaping hoses, adjusting his harness, moving stuff around, basically just getting everything squared away, he needed another light and some bolt snaps to get it done, so he bought them in the store. We got everything finished and he brought his stuff out to the pool with the class and adjusted some things after diving it and seemed very pleased. I saw him out with his daughter the about a month after that, he thanked me again for my help.

Now, he paid more for the equipment he bought through us then he would have online, but he also got to sit in on the class for free, all the help he wanted for free and even got to go to the pool for free, I would say he got his money's worth.

Ben

We do the exact same type of service for our customer. I'll even throw in a refresher for a customer that took his training and bought his gear thru us. Maybe some free air fills too. We really take care of them to the max. But some people don't care about this anymore. They just want the "UPFRONT" major discount or whatever. The fail to see the value of purchasing thru a local dive shop and the value of freebies they'll recieve in the future.
Everything has to be "UPFRONT DISCOUNT NOW" or go to hell.
Fortunetely we still have plenty of divers who still shop and support the LDS's..at least for now...

 

[USMC Diver]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...
It's very simple, an LDS should provide quality training, gas fills, equipment, maintaince and trips at reasonable prices, along with these pay items comes a center of the diving community and good advice on everything diving related including equipment, training and travel, so at the end of the day that extra money you paid gets you something extra in return. If they can't do it, then go online, but don't expect any of these freebies from your shop. IMO someone who buys their equipment online, then drags it into the shop and expects the employees to show them how their computer works or setup their reg is the lowest form of consumer, just a parasite.

Ben

If I could find a dive shop that offered the above then I would totally agree with your stance on "the LDS is the place to go" theory. However, reality is (at least in my area)...

Overly priced classes (rescue for 350, bring your own gear and air)
Overly priced travel

Overly priced equipment

Snobby service

and way too many clique type attitudes. The only welcomed people are the ones that buy from them every day or the ones that are "in the pipeline" for instructor.

I would much rather go to an LDS for all things SCUBA, I agree, but until I can find one that is going to offer a better deal (all around) then the Internet then that is where I will go.

I can get cheap equipment

I can get cheap travel

Hell, as an Instructor for the Military I can get cheap (read: free) training.

I would be willing to pay a nominal fee for quality services, but as it stands, until there is a shift in attitude, I will be elsewhere.

This may just be a local problem though, who knows.

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

USMCDIVER once bubbled

4 Students -- $1600
Class Space -- Free at local YMCA
Shop Insurance -- ???
Pool Space -- Free at local YMCA
Equipment -- 120 dollers (40 per day, hopefully this includes gear maintinance, if not bad buisness.)
Compressor and Maintinance -- ???
Instrutor -- 20 dollers per cert
Instructor INS -- He pays his own
Instrucor -- also good friend of mine, does not get stiffed. He gets speciality instructor fees paid for by the students as "tip".
OOps, almost forgot - PIC Card $13
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all I'm a YMCA instructor and have a personally relationship with the Chairman of the Board of YMCA SCUBA and personal relationships with Directors of several YMCA's.

Pool space and class room space is not FREE!
YMCA's are run partially on United funds and govt. funds. Therefore it would be illegal for it to be free. If it is free I'm going to track it down and take care of it. Our tax money is being blown on so much crap it's not going to help out your free pool!
And now your giving away a pic at cost? You need to study economics a little harder.
Are you saying an Instructor is only getting paid 20 per cert.? I bet that's a top notch high caliber class...

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

USMC Diver once bubbled...


If I could find a dive shop that offered the above then I would totally agree with your stance on "the LDS is the place to go" theory. However, reality is (at least in my area)...

Overly priced classes (rescue for 350, bring your own gear and air)
.

Maybe it's just me but shouldn't a Rescue Diver To Be already own his or her own equipment......

 

[USMC Diver]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
USMCDIVER once bubbled

4 Students -- $1600
Class Space -- Free at local YMCA
Shop Insurance -- ???
Pool Space -- Free at local YMCA
Equipment -- 120 dollers (40 per day, hopefully this includes gear maintinance, if not bad buisness.)
Compressor and Maintinance -- ???
Instrutor -- 20 dollers per cert
Instructor INS -- He pays his own
Instrucor -- also good friend of mine, does not get stiffed. He gets speciality instructor fees paid for by the students as "tip".
OOps, almost forgot - PIC Card $13
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all I'm a YMCA instructor and have a personally relationship with the Chairman of the Board of YMCA SCUBA and personal relationships with Directors of several YMCA's.

Pool space and class room space is not FREE!
YMCA's are run partially on United funds and govt. funds. Therefore it would be illegal for it to be free. If it is free I'm going to track it down and take care of it. Our tax money is being blown on so much crap it's not going to help out your free pool!

Hey, it's thier agreement not mine... If that is how they are cutting corners then so be it. I know the guy who manages the YMCA has some really nice brand new gear... but I don't want to insinuate any underhandedness (if that is a word)

And now your giving away a pic at cost? You need to study economics a little harder.

No, I wish they would. I am tired of them saying, "Congrats on graduation Rescue Diver class, I need 25 more dollers for your C Card". GREED!

Are you saying an Instructor is only getting paid 20 per cert.? I bet that's a top notch high caliber class...

Not really.

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

USMC Diver once bubbled...


Hey, it's thier agreement not mine... If that is how they are cutting corners then so be it. I know the guy who manages the YMCA has some really nice brand new gear... but I don't want to insinuate any underhandedness (if that is a word)

I understand and that's cool. But I do give the Aquatics Directors at the YMCA's gear at Cost and free classes for getting me X amount of students. That really lights a fire under there rear-end and keeps the classes coming.

But the YMCA does get a % of the class fee. YMCA's are in fact run on United Funds which is all of our money. So they can't just call me up and start a class. They are supposed to take bids, and determine which instructor or shop they want to use after contacting as many as possible in the local area. This is actually the law since YMCA's are run on United Funds. YMCA's in the Atlanta area have actually been sued and the lost when they took one instructor and didn't give someone else the chance for the business.

I taught PADI for a year at a large YMCA and they took care of me and crossed me over to YMCA SCUBA on a scholorship..So I got it for free, except for the time off of work of course. Of course they called it a scholorship and not just free.

 

[USMC Diver]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
USMC Diver once bubbled...


If I could find a dive shop that offered the above then I would totally agree with your stance on "the LDS is the place to go" theory. However, reality is (at least in my area)...

Overly priced classes (rescue for 350, bring your own gear and air)
.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe it's just me but shouldn't a Rescue Diver To Be already own his or her own equipment......







I agree with that, I added that so I could show how much the price was inflated. 350 includes just the right to show up at the lake. What isn't included, gear, lake fee, tavel, pic card, books, video, Final review/test Fee $25...etc. Kind of expensive when you look at it. That is 350 in the LDS owners pocket, minus 20 buck for the Instructor.