The Halcyon Eclipse single tank wing

[docmartin]

The must let anyone be a diving journalist.

I don't think the author has an anti-Halcyon agenda...even if he did, I could care less. Halcyon makes good stuff, but I don't have any blind allegiance to them. If another company were to make a product that I thought was better, I would switch brands. I simply don't like the fact that the author attributes his problems in the water to the design of the Eclipse. Perhaps if someone had shown him how the BC was intended to be used, his review would have been more positive. How can you write a review when you don't even bother to learn how the product works? The product is hardly to blame when you don't know how it works or understand the reasoning behind it. The author should have done his research on the product before testing it out. As a result of this poor review, a lot of people probably not even consider this BC.

well, well although a fan of halcyon wings i respectfully disagree with your comment. what do you mean the author should do his research? how can you honestly blame the author "to not even bother to learn how the product works? that responsibility is clearly with halcyon and not the author. if the wing requires a different and specific way of diving that is different from the main stream then halcyon should describe it in their manual that comes with the wing. the fact is they don't. as a consumer i can hardly be expected to research beyond the supplied manuals to find out if the product i bought requires some special operating procedures. the world is not DIR - yet.

 

[ElectricZombie]

well, well although a fan of halcyon wings i respectfully disagree with your comment. what do you mean the author should do his research? how can you honestly blame the author "to not even bother to learn how the product works? that responsibility is clearly with halcyon and not the author. if the wing requires a different and specific way of diving that is different from the main stream then halcyon should describe it in their manual that comes with the wing. the fact is they don't. as a consumer i can hardly be expected to research beyond the supplied manuals to find out if the product i bought requires some special operating procedures. the world is not DIR - yet.

It is not Halcyon's responsibility to make sure that everyone who uses or evaluates their products knows how to dive properly. When you go buy a new car, it isn't the dealers responsibility to give you driving lessons because you are a menace on the road. The people who buy Halcyon products can use or misuse them as they see fit. People have to take responsibility and do what is necessary to use the product effectively.

The author skills are not up to par and he faults the BC. He does not understand the proper techniques the BC was designed around. I don't consider Halcyon products to require the use of any special techniques in the water. I would dive exactly the same way if I were using any other BC available. Halcyon products do not require special operating procedures...people simply need to practice their skills.

 

[chrpai]

Can you guys stop feeding the troll?

 

[cornfed]

Can you guys stop feeding the troll?

Don't know about the rest of the world, but it's lunch time here!

 

[fins wake]

A valid point of view but we don't all share it. But that might be because I can find the string on the pull dump while wearing heavy dry gloves without a button on the end of it. The fact that the string is always in the center of the valve makes it easy. LOL

Interesting, because I can't (with my drysuit gloves on). I've added a button to my Halcyon wing for precisely this reason. Of course, that probably makes me an "unskilled" and "incompetent" Halcyon user, but I don't care. It's my life, and it's my personal preference. And I've found that some Halcyon products indeed do require a different SOP than say, using a Mares or Scubapro product. In fact, Bantin's article proves that to an extent, and there are other examples if one can be bothered ...

Of course, Halcyon wings share this with products from OMS, Custom Divers, Dive Rite, Agir, DTD and plenty of others too. Funnily enough - okay, maybe it's not that funny - only one brand seems to inspire devotion of quite religious zeal, where the merest hint of criticism provokes paroxysms of hostility and personal attacks ...

Also an unconscious diver at the surface will be somewhat less safe in a wing than in a BCD, and much less than in e.g. an ABLJ. Fact. My risk assessment overall still makes me choose a wing and not an ABLJ, but there is no single truth out there. Of course, a zealot of any colour, creed or variety will disagree with that blanket statement. Because.

Incidentally, although I sometimes have questioned some of John's personal choices - in other matters - as all thinking divers will do when faced with other methodologies than their own, I find the assertion by some on this forum that his diving skills somehow not are up to par overall both risible and offensive. It actually says more about these people than about John. Certainly their research isn't up to par ...

I find such comments probably deter many more divers from DIR, Halcyon and the whole shebang than ever any one single article.

Now it's time for some grub ...

 

[caveseeker7]

I simply don't like the fact that the author attributes his problems in the water to the design of the Eclipse. Perhaps if someone had shown him how the BC was intended to be used, his review would have been more positive.

Does that point of view extend to the critique of let's say split fins or Force Fins? If you use the right kick they work. If you try to frog or back kick they don't. So don't blame the design, blame the (wrong for the product) technique?

... It is not Halcyon's responsibility to make sure that everyone who uses or evaluates their products knows how to dive properly.

... I don't consider Halcyon products to require the use of any special techniques in the water. ... Halcyon products do not require special operating procedures...

Wrong on multiple accounts. First, head to your local Halcyon peddler and order an RB80, and you will see that for certain products Halcyon has and takes the responsibility to make sure the buyer is qualified, as that Halcyon product does require special operating procedures.

As you make a comparisson to a car, how about this: Aston Martins used to have a kill switch in the trunk. Unless you knew, no go. Now imagine the review of the car that during the test wouldn't start up anymore ... .
A bp/w does need a different assembly, dives different, and in the case of the Halcyon is designed around the DIR need and creed.
If Halcyon, or its UK rep, wants to broaden their customer base, those differences should be explained, as most divers simply will not know them. There is plenty of good reasoning behind Halcyon designs and products, so why not take advantage of those good reasons to help peolpe understand.

The author is John Bantin, not Jesus. He can't walk on water, and he doesn't know everything. The magazine is a dive magazine, not a technical diving magazine nor Quest. It features all diving. And the review went accordingly. How many posts have you read asking for advice on bp/w setup and/or use?
You can give a fair and reasonable critique, but don't bash without considering that.


Also remember it can work both ways:
The GUE training will lead to the use of DIR equipment.
The use of DIR equipment might very well lead to GUE training.

And that should be a win/win situation for both.


Add-ited: Why are you a NAUI rather than a GUE instructor?

 

[saying]

Does that point of view extend to the critique of let's say split fins or Force Fins? If you use the right kick they work. If you try to frog or back kick they don't. So don't blame the design, blame the (wrong for the product) technique?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[docmartin]

It is not Halcyon's responsibility to make sure that everyone who uses or evaluates their products knows how to dive properly. When you go buy a new car, it isn't the dealers responsibility to give you driving lessons because you are a menace on the road. The people who buy Halcyon products can use or misuse them as they see fit. People have to take responsibility and do what is necessary to use the product effectively.

The author skills are not up to par and he faults the BC. He does not understand the proper techniques the BC was designed around. I don't consider Halcyon products to require the use of any special techniques in the water. I would dive exactly the same way if I were using any other BC available. Halcyon products do not require special operating procedures...people simply need to practice their skills.

he dives like the vast majority of divers have been taught to dive by legitimate and recognized agencies. that's the reality. like it or not, things like ascending in a horizontal position are not the standard. don't get me wrong, i am with you in that i also think there is a better way.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Interesting, because I can't (with my drysuit gloves on). I've added a button to my Halcyon wing for precisely this reason. Of course, that probably makes me an "unskilled" and "incompetent" Halcyon user, but I don't care. It's my life, and it's my personal preference. And I've found that some Halcyon products indeed do require a different SOP than say, using a Mares or Scubapro product. In fact, Bantin's article proves that to an extent, and there are other examples if one can be bothered ...

I doubt that adding the button will be the end of you. Also I agree that a Halcyon wing or any other bp/wing is different that a mares or scubapro product and IMO, that's a good thing.

Of course, Halcyon wings share this with products from OMS, Custom Divers, Dive Rite, Agir, DTD and plenty of others too. Funnily enough - okay, maybe it's not that funny - only one brand seems to inspire devotion of quite religious zeal, where the merest hint of criticism provokes paroxysms of hostility and personal attacks ...

True. The DIR thing does get people going.

Also an unconscious diver at the surface will be somewhat less safe in a wing than in a BCD, and much less than in e.g. an ABLJ. Fact. My risk assessment overall still makes me choose a wing and not an ABLJ, but there is no single truth out there. Of course, a zealot of any colour, creed or variety will disagree with that blanket statement. Because.

My wing with a single tank floats me as upright as any bc. With my doubles I'm pulled onto my back if I don't couner it. That would be pretty good if I was unconscious.

Incidentally, although I sometimes have questioned some of John's personal choices - in other matters - as all thinking divers will do when faced with other methodologies than their own, I find the assertion by some on this forum that his diving skills somehow not are up to par overall both risible and offensive. It actually says more about these people than about John. Certainly their research isn't up to par ...

All that I know about him is in this review and my impression is that he is typical of recreational diving journalism and diving habits.

I find such comments probably deter many more divers from DIR, Halcyon and the whole shebang than ever any one single article.

Now it's time for some grub ...

Well,see...I'm not selling DIR or Halcyon. I am trying to dispell some of the mainstream agency and manufacturer bs though.
I notice that while some continue to defend this guy, no one has argues anything that I said about ascents, descents or how divers learn buoyancy control. They go together. IMO, you can't appreciate the qualities of a good wing without evaluating it in light of those issues. The convenience of pretty pockets of the latest style for hauling around the latest gizmo really doesn't enter into it. A bc needs to do one thing and that's aid you in controling depth and position without getting in the way of anything else. Now they have resorted to pnuematic inflate/deflate valves and all kinds of junk that while getting a divers attention in the shop just make trouble for divers in the water.

This writer never once mentioned how easy it was for him to get correctly trimmed with the wing. Did he take that for granted or did he overlook it like all the texts? A wing like this has features that provide some advantages over the mares or sp bc's in this catagory. Also most people find the difference in resistance in the water dramatic. If you're not trimmed though you won't notice.

The review, IMO, totally ignored any real issues and focused on..."the string was hard to feel"..."there wasn't a shoulder pull dump"...Sorry in general all the comments of one who doesn't know what the thing is for. I'm surprised he didn't complain about the lack of pin stripping or a flame paint job.

 

[fins wake]

All that I know about him is in this review and my impression is that he is typical of recreational diving journalism and diving habits.

That's actually a fair point from the review (and from some other issues), so I won't press the issue. John's a very experienced dive hack and ex-instructor though. Of course, that's neither here nor there to the Halcyon review at hand.

I notice that while some continue to defend this guy, no one has argues anything that I said about ascents, descents or how divers learn buoyancy control.

That's because as wing diving goes, you're absolutely right.

The review, IMO, totally ignored any real issues and focused on..."the string was hard to feel"..."there wasn't a shoulder pull dump"...

They were issues to him, right or wrong. Perhaps an issue of old dogs and new tricks, but he's not alone.

I'm surprised he didn't complain about the lack of pin stripping or a flame paint job.

Ouch! And you were doing so well thus far, with such a reasoned debate there. And then it's implied that the guy is a pink-snorkel-and-cattle-boat type of diver. He's not. Of course, I'm equally guilty of the same deliberately provocative statements sometimes, so I'm not going to cast any stones here ...

But for those who believe John Bantin is about pink snorkels and drinks-with-little-sun-screens-in, please consider the following six words which I think characterize the man: Punta Galinda. Congers. Deep recreational. Rescue.

Just to help people with their initial research.

PS! Caveseeker of course immediately nailed what I was thinking of ... the RB80 definitely requires a special SOP. And we all agree it's a nice piece of kit.