The Philosophy of Diver Training

[The Chairman]

Question - no doubt many of these restrictions we put in place due to lawsuits, etc. Do the agencies (generic, thank you) put new restrictions in place in knee-jerk reactions to law suits, or do they have an established process by which the standards and restrictions are changed?

I would imagine that it's a combination of both, but I really don't know. The RSTC has a board comprised of ALL of the agencies except NAUI, but I don't think they would let me get close to their meetings. I would love to hear them discuss things!

I do know that if you DON'T like the requirements of your agency, then you can find another or start your own. This might be the genesis of the DCBC Training Agency for all we know.

 

[Jax]

That's the kind of 'smokey room' politics that makes me suspicious.

 

[The Chairman]

I don't think they smoke.

 

[Jax]

I don't think they smoke.

According to this thread, they're smoking something.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

If there is anything that I've said on this thread (or any other) about current PADI Standards that are misleading, please correct this by posting the specific PADI Standard that clearly indicates that my statement was incorrect. I will promptly retract any incorrect statement.

King, you are not a PADI Instructor, nor have you ever been. That does not stop you from participating in any of these discussions, nor should it. If you are saying that PADI now allows their Instructors to teach beyond PADI Standards please correct me. In the past, this wasn't the case. PADI specified what was to be taught, what was optional and what was prohibited.

I teach Hawaiian Mythology in my OW class, but I do not test on Hawaiian Mythology; that said, at the end of the course all my students know why Mauka is a directional term indicating "towards the mountain" and why Makai means "by the ocean", even though those questions are not on any test.

That is an extreme example, but your use of the term teach in place of the proper term test makes the statement a lie in many eyes.

 

[Walter]

The RSTC has a board comprised of ALL of the agencies except NAUI

I think the RSTC (US) includes only IDEA, PADI, PDIC, SDI and SSI. In other areas around the world, the RSTC also includes ACUC, Barakuda, NASDS, PSS, SNSI, and DAN.

Lots of other agencies are not members.

 

[Crush]

Heck, they don't even allow me to conduct OW training in a cavern or cave environment. What's up with that? Those are simply out of the scope of OW classes and rightfully so! Most of these "rules" have arisen out of student deaths and injuries which have caused all agencies to prescribe what and what not may be taught.

NetDoc,

Many of my posts in this thread peeve people off, and I hope to not add you to that (growing) list, but I have to take issue with your reducing the idea of adequate training to an absurdity. I don't think that anyone would propose that, for example, mask clearing skills should be carried out in an overhead environment. However, having leaned how to ascertain responsiveness underwater and carrying out a slow, controlled ascent with an unconscious victim two years ago during my basic-OW training, I felt shocked when I learned that such training was the exception, not the rule! (We also practiced recognizing stress and panic, intervention, etc.) I feel much more "exposed" now when I dive, having learned that my fellow diver will likely leave my unconscious @$$ behind, surface, and alert the boat on the surface that I am "somewhere down there." I feel that this is simply not right, especially if the vis is less than 50 feet and locating the unconscious person proves to be difficult.

While reading this thread, I am reminded of a sign I saw in shops class - the graphic portrayed a blind person's cane with a pair of safety goggles draped across them. The caption says "So great a loss, so little could have prevented that loss."

 

[The Chairman]

NetDoc,

Many of my posts in this thread peeve people off, and I hope to not add you to that (growing) list, but I have to take issue with your reducing the idea of adequate training to an absurdity.

Yes and I wonder just how many newly minted OW students have to do that? FWIW, I teach the same skill and think it adds to the class. However, I caution all of my students that they only have a taste of doing this type of thing. Nothing gets you calm in the water save experience. Without calm, in the face of death, a tragedy could easily double. I have often considered that the BEST thing this does is be certain that your instructor is adequately prepared for this task since they teach it to every single student.

I don't think that anyone would propose that, for example, mask clearing skills should be carried out in an overhead environment.

Yet, it's been done and with deadly consequences. Why do you think agencies specifically prohibit it?

However, having leaned how to ascertain responsiveness underwater and carrying out a slow, controlled ascent with an unconscious victim two years ago during my basic-OW training, I felt shocked when I learned that such training was the exception, not the rule!

I am guessing that this is NAUI training. I wonder if you practiced breathing off of a free flowing reg at depth? NAUI doesn't require this skill while PADI does. :shocked2: What's the liklihood of a free-flowing regulator compared to that of finding an unconscious diver? 100 to 1? I'm just spit-balling here. Guess what? I teach that skill too. Your OW class is as good and thorough as your instructor wants it to be. It can also be as neanderthal and myopic too!

While reading this thread, I am reminded of a sign I saw in shops class - the graphic portrayed a blind person's cane with a pair of safety goggles draped across them. The caption says "So great a loss, so little could have prevented that loss."

How about the one that says "Those who can: Do! Those who can't: Teach!"

 

[schaffld]

Wow... just got back from a two week hiatus while the Olympics and work got in the way of my discussion in this thread. I tried so hard to keep my comments civil and obedient... but it looks way more fun to be full of pi$$ and vinegar.

 

[Walter]

Nothing gets you calm in the water save experience. Without calm, in the face of death, a tragedy could easily double. I have often considered that the BEST thing this does is be certain that your instructor is adequately prepared for this task since they teach it to every single student.

Experience is a major factor in the equation, but there are other factors as well. In combination, they work extremely well. Some people simply have a calmer reaction in an emergency than others. Knowledge is extremely important. A diver who knows what to do will be more likely to remain calm. Practice is also important (as you pointed out) in remaining calm when things go wrong. In my opinion, a diver will do much better in an emergency if he knows what to do, has practiced the skills required and has lots of experience. Each of those elements is important.

I am guessing that this is NAUI training. I wonder if you practiced breathing off of a free flowing reg at depth? NAUI doesn't require this skill while PADI does.

Excellent point. Odds are he did learn no mask breathing even though NAUI doesn't require it either (PADI does). There are no perfect agencies, all of them can improve.

Your OW class is as good and thorough as your instructor wants it to be.

Your OW class can be as good and thorough as your instructor knows how to make it.

It can also be as neanderthal and myopic too!

Very true. I learned about breathing from a free flowing regulator by reading PADI standards about 12 years ago and put it in the next class I taught. I included it in the comparison of Open Water standards I was writing at the time and made the comment that it was an excellent skill and neither NAUI nor YMCA had such a requirement (YMCA added this skill after seeing the comparison and SEI retains it today). Odds are you learned about it the same way I did or directly or indirectly from my comparison. Both of us saw the value of this skill. Several folks here on SB, have stopped having students learn skills on their knees because we've kept an open mind and have been willing to learn from other instructors on this board.

Do we adopt each other's methods all the time? Of course not. What is important is not that we all teach exactly the same, but that we are willing to look at what the other has to say with the goal of picking up gems we can use. Once we believe we have the perfect class, it will get no better and might even decline. As long as we continue looking for ways to improve, we will improve our classes.