Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[Sas]

Why do you think not lying is wrong?

Because telling the truth can hurt someone or myself. If I think something will upset someone or make life difficult for me, and lying really has no downside I think lying is preferable. For example I had a very sick old uncle (90yo) who was very Christian. My mother asked if I could tell him I was married to my boyfriend as he would find it very upsetting to hear we were living together without being married. Usually I would never lie about something like this as other people's belief systems should not take priority over mine but it just made things easier for everyone if I lied.

Sometimes people ask me about if their child is cute. I hate children but always pretend I like them as people find it very hurtful if you do not like their child. Things like that I lie about.

I've had to learn manually every social skill that keeps society together because I was born not knowing that intuitively like most people so it has been painfully obvious to me how important lying is as I've often told the truth in situations where no sane person would.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Because telling the truth can hurt someone or myself. If I think something will upset someone or make life difficult for me, and lying really has no downside I think lying is preferable. For example I had a very sick old uncle (90yo) who was very Christian. My mother asked if I could tell him I was married to my boyfriend as he would find it very upsetting to hear we were living together without being married. Usually I would never lie about something like this as other people's belief systems should not take priority over mine but it just made things easier for everyone if I lied.

Sometimes people ask me about if their child is cute. I hate children but always pretend I like them as people find it very hurtful if you do not like their child. Things like that I lie about.

I've had to learn manually every social skill that keeps society together because I was born not knowing that intuitively like most people so it has been painfully obvious to me how important lying is as I've often told the truth in situations where no sane person would.

What you are referring to as "lying" is telling "white lies" to make others happy, and I am sure we all do that.

This thread is not about white lies, it is about lying on a health questionnaire. Let's say, for example, that I have a heart condition, but I don't have a doctor's written release and I am afraid if I answer "Yes" on the form, a DM will refuse to take me in his class or on his boat, so I lie and answer "No".

Am I doing this solely to get what I want? Yes
Am I doing this to spare his feelings? No
Am I doing this in spite of what he wants and has asked for? Yes
Is my action harmful to the DM? Yes, by deceiving him I have taken away his right to decide for himself, based on the facts.
Is my action harmful to me? Yes, I have traded away my integrity for a small temporary advantage.
Does my action endanger the DM? Yes, potentially, and we have heard from Peter Guy and RJP why they feel that is so.

 

[Sas]

What you are referring to as "lying" is telling "white lies" to make others happy, and I am sure we all do that.

This thread is not about white lies, it is about lying on a health questionnaire. Let's say, for example, that I have a heart condition, but I don't have a doctor's written release and I am afraid if I answer "Yes" on the form, a DM will refuse to take me in his class or on his boat, so I lie and answer "No".

I would not think lying is a good idea in such circumstances. The only time I would lie on a dive operator's medical form is when I already have the approval of a diving doctor to dive (which I do). I do not think people who do not have doctor's sign off should lie and have posted to that effect multiple times.

I think the fact that some people here use a form as the sole way to determine if some is fit to dive is less safe than what I do, which is gain doctor's approval to dive and then answer No to everything on the form.

 

[Mike Boswell]

I would not think lying is a good idea in such circumstances. The only time I would lie on a dive operator's medical form is when I already have the approval of a diving doctor to dive (which I do). I do not think people who do not have doctor's sign off should lie and have posted to that effect multiple times.

I think the fact that some people here use a form as the sole way to determine if some is fit to dive is less safe than what I do, which is gain doctor's approval to dive and then answer No to everything on the form.

Here is a different take on the subject, one that I have always loved:

Yes, Prime Minister - You lied - The Tangled Web Videos, Watch Free Yes, Prime Minister - You lied - The Tangled Web Videos Online : IN.com

 

[Sas]

Here is a different take on the subject, one that I have always loved:

Yes, Prime Minister - You lied - The Tangled Web Videos, Watch Free Yes, Prime Minister - You lied - The Tangled Web Videos Online : IN.com

How about instead of responding with videos (which I have no interest in, or time to watch, it's much more efficient if you just state your point yourself) or cherry picking definitions from the dictionary you post why you think that a diving store should have access to my medical information without any guarantee of privacy when I *already have* sign off from my own diving doctor to dive?

Stop posting about people who lie on forms when they don't have approval from a diving doctor, it is completely irrelevant to a lot of what the people here are arguing about including myself.

What do you think the risks are for me, who has approval from a diving doctor to dive and has no current medical conditions as per the list, when I write NO on a form when in fact I have some of the conditions on the form in the past? Do you think that this is worse than someone who has never had a condition but has no diving doctor sign off and therefore might have a condition they don't know about?

Stick to what is actually being discussed.

 

[Kingpatzer]

You mean - refuse to fill in the form, and provide a doctor's clearance instead? I doubt that this will be accepted, but you are free to try it.

However, the issue is lying on the form and then signing the statement saying you told the truth. That would be wrong.

I'm not asking about your particular moral judgement.

What I am asking you is the following question:

I have a medical condition listed on the form which I know with absolute certainty is not relevant in my particular case because of the specifics of my case. I have had recent dive physical (well within the 1 year that PADI at least requires) by a qualified physician.

I answer "No" on all questions and sign off on the form for the reasons that: I am not willing to disclose my medical information to someone with whom I have no medical relationship; I have the specific medical clearance that they require; they provide no guarantee that they will accept my clearance even though they have no ability to evaluate medical information; they have no duty to protect the confidentiality of my information; there is no liability on their part for failure to protect my information listed in the contract; they are not willing to negotiate the terms of the contract; and lastly that it does not change any liability issues or waivers relative to the contract.

In what way have I created a problem?

 

[Hatul]

I'm not asking about your particular moral judgement.

What I am asking you is the following question:

I have a medical condition listed on the form which I know with absolute certainty is not relevant in my particular case because of the specifics of my case. I have had recent dive physical (well within the 1 year that PADI at least requires) by a qualified physician.

I answer "No" on all questions and sign off on the form for the reasons that: I am not willing to disclose my medical information to someone with whom I have no medical relationship; I have the specific medical clearance that they require; they provide no guarantee that they will accept my clearance even though they have no ability to evaluate medical information; they have no duty to protect the confidentiality of my information; there is no liability on their part for failure to protect my information listed in the contract; they are not willing to negotiate the terms of the contract; and lastly that it does not change any liability issues or waivers relative to the contract.

In what way have I created a problem?

If you know what you're doing, know you're OK to dive and don't want the dive op to accept any legal liability for your medical condition when diving, then you can answer the forms any way you want.

If you do a diving problem and need medical help you can at that point tell the physician your medical condition and your meds if any. They will ask you anyway, unless you're totally incapacitated.

There is no need to put everything down on every form someone puts in front of you.

Adam

 

[Kingpatzer]

If you know what you're doing, know you're OK to dive and don't want the dive op to accept any legal liability for your medical condition when diving, then you can answer the forms any way you want.

The purpose of the medical release is precisely that the dive op is refuse to accept any liability for a person's medical condition anyway. So my willingness to accept liability has no bearing on the question as if I am not willing to accept that liability I would not sign the form at all.

 

[boulderjohn]

The purpose of the medical release is precisely that the dive op is refuse to accept any liability for a person's medical condition anyway. So my willingness to accept liability has no bearing on the question as if I am not willing to accept that liability I would not sign the form at all.

Except that, as I have now said twice, people have successfully reneged on such display of willingness in court by claiming they were not fully informed before signing. That is why you have to initial legal documents (like mortgage papers) in a million places in addition to signing.

 

[Mike Boswell]

I'm not asking about your particular moral judgement.

What I am asking you is the following question:

I have a medical condition listed on the form which I know with absolute certainty is not relevant in my particular case because of the specifics of my case. I have had recent dive physical (well within the 1 year that PADI at least requires) by a qualified physician.

I answer "No" on all questions and sign off on the form for the reasons that: I am not willing to disclose my medical information to someone with whom I have no medical relationship; I have the specific medical clearance that they require; they provide no guarantee that they will accept my clearance even though they have no ability to evaluate medical information; they have no duty to protect the confidentiality of my information; there is no liability on their part for failure to protect my information listed in the contract; they are not willing to negotiate the terms of the contract; and lastly that it does not change any liability issues or waivers relative to the contract.

In what way have I created a problem?

Look at the PADI form again, I believe it addresses at least some of your concerns:

http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/forms/pdf/10063-ver2-0.pdf -

At the top of Page 1, it says "(Confidential Information)". This means that PADI and their associated dive operations have assumed the legal obligation to protect the confidentiality of the information.

On Page 1 it clearly states (in two places) that if you answer "Yes" to any of the questions you should get a doctor's approval prior to diving.

On Page 2 is a form for a doctor's approval. It requires the doctor to check one of two boxes, which say either (a) "I find no medical conditions that I consider incompatible with diving", or (b) "I am unable to recommend this individual for diving." This statement does not ask for specific medical information.

On Page 6 is a lengthy list of medical references and endorsers, which include major hospitals, barotrauma centers, and DAN resources. I presume that these experts have approved this form from a medical perspective. I suppose you could challenge it on legal grounds, but I doubt you would prevail.

In my opinion, since you already have a doctor's approval, you should check "Yes" and present the approval.

If you mark "No" when the truth is "Yes", have you created a problem? Possibly. There are endless scenarios. For example, if the dive op's negligence results in your being injured or killed, you or your heirs will have to disprove the defense's charge that it was your own failure to discose requested information that in fact caused the incident.