Those health forms -- Truth or Consequences?

[Mike Boswell]

The purpose of the medical release is precisely that the dive op is refuse to accept any liability for a person's medical condition anyway. So my willingness to accept liability has no bearing on the question as if I am not willing to accept that liability I would not sign the form at all.

Hi Kingpatzer - I wish that were true, but in fact US law is clear: A person CANNOT sign away his legal rights, even if he is willing to do so. This means that liability releases are not a protection against negligence, whatever they may say to the contrary, and virtually any accident can be portrayed as - at least partially - the result of someone's negligence.

Interestingly, since the dive op knows, or should know, that certain medical conditions may pose high risks to scuba divers, they would be negligent if they FAILED to warn you of those risks, in writing, and ask for a doctor's approval if there was some question.

Just out of curiosity, I would like to know why you feel the contract must be "negotiable". Is this a legal requirement?

 

[adurso]

Are not the RSTC forms more applicable to intro courses? Leaving aside the ability of dive shop folks making medical judgments; a person who decides to take up diving would not be aware of the possible complications resulting from smoking and diving for example.

I have also overheard instructors telling customers to mark "no" to certain questions....such as the prescription medication question....

 

[boulderjohn]

I have also overheard instructors telling customers to mark "no" to certain questions....such as the prescription medication question....

If the instructor is telling the student to mark something untruthfully, that instructor could be in real trouble if anything goes wrong. I sure would not do it.

On the other hand, there are several items on the list that people frequently misunderstand and may be inclined to write "yes" when "No" would be the correct response. Some of these require the person filling out the form to make a judgment, and an instructor might quite properly advise a person to write "no."

Here are some examples of items people sometimes want to mark with a "Yes" unnecessarily:

• Frequent colds, sinusitis or bronchitis. What does frequent mean? I would only mark yes if this happened far more than happens to a typical person.
• Frequent or severe suffering from motion sickness. Everyone gets seasick under the right conditions. I would only mark this if I had a really significant problem where I expected it on almost any boat trip.
• Recurrent back problems. Again, everyone has a back problem on occasion. I would only mark it if it happened enough to create a problem with scuba.
• Back, arm, or leg problems following surgery, injury or fracture. This is the most common mistake. People sometimes don't notice the phrase problems following and think they have to indicate if they have ever had surgery or a broken bone. If you had surgery or a fracture and healed normally, then this item is a "No."

 

[Kingpatzer]

Hi Kingpatzer - I wish that were true, but in fact US law is clear: A person CANNOT sign away his legal rights, even if he is willing to do so. This means that liability releases are not a protection against negligence, whatever they may say to the contrary, and virtually any accident can be portrayed as - at least partially - the result of someone's negligence.

That's true as I understand it, but not quite my point. As you state:

Interestingly, since the dive op knows, or should know, that certain medical conditions may pose high risks to scuba divers, they would be negligent if they FAILED to warn you of those risks, in writing, and ask for a doctor's approval if there was some question.

By having me initial each line and sign the form, they have proven that I am providing informed consent, regardless of if what I answer is true or not.

Moreover, if the accident is a result of a medical condition I have, then it is very unlikely that it can be adequately portrayed as negligence on the part of the dive operator.

Just out of curiosity, I would like to know why you feel the contract must be "negotiable". Is this a legal requirement?

Since I would be willing to provide the information requested if they would guarantee that a physician's waiver would be accepted, would provide a promise of confidentiality with regards to my information, and would accept liability for the protection of that information, then answering the questions being asked would, while still utterly unnecessary in the case of a person having a current dive physical, would not be onerous.

 

[Mike Boswell]

...Since I would be willing to provide the information requested if they would guarantee that a physician's waiver would be accepted, would provide a promise of confidentiality with regards to my information, and would accept liability for the protection of that information, then answering the questions being asked would, while still utterly unnecessary in the case of a person having a current dive physical, would not be onerous.

Your conditions don't sound unreasonable to me, and I believe they are already met. I believe they accept the physician's waiver, because they supply the waiver for you to get filled out. I believe they accept liability for confidentiality, because their form says it is confidential information.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Your conditions don't sound unreasonable to me, and I believe they are already met. I believe they accept the physician's waiver, because they supply the waiver for you to get filled out. I believe they accept liability for confidentiality, because their form says it is confidential information.

They are not required to accept a waiver from my physician. There are numerous reports of folks being required to get a "local" physician approval. There is nothing in the wording that requires them to take the waiver of the physician most likely to have the best information necessary to make a decision.

There is no language in the medical form to indicate that they agree to the confidentiality of the data or that they will accept liability in the event that it is inappropriately disclosed or used.

 

[Mike Boswell]

They are not required to accept a waiver from my physician. There are numerous reports of folks being required to get a "local" physician approval. There is nothing in the wording that requires them to take the waiver of the physician most likely to have the best information necessary to make a decision.

There is no language in the medical form to indicate that they agree to the confidentiality of the data or that they will accept liability in the event that it is inappropriately disclosed or used.

Regarding waivers, no, they are not required to accept anything. Indeed, they are not required to accept you at all. But in my experience the people at dive ops usually go overboard in the opposite direction. The reality is that most will go to great lengths to serve you, even accomodating people in wheelchairs.

Regarding confidentiality requirements, I suppose it depends on who "they" are and what laws they operate under. Certainly in the US, a form with "Confidential" at the top would be understood to be confidential by any judge or jury.

However, this thread and your comments have pointed out some of the potential problems and before traveling to a dive location I will take whatever steps I need to avoid problems when I get there.

Requiring up front and in writing that XYZ Dive on Bonaire agree to protect my confidential medical information and accept my personal doctor's signoff, before confirming my travel plans, is a better solution than lying on their form, because it makes the business aware of my concerns and needs, does not deceive them, and does not compromise my integrity or legal position.

DAN says divers are getting older, so more of us will face these issues. What kind of dive industry do we want? Cynicism and dishonesty are repugnant to me. Following our principles makes the world better for everyone.

 

[Kingpatzer]

DAN says divers are getting older, so more of us will face these issues. What kind of dive industry do we want? Cynicism and dishonesty are repugnant to me. Following our principles makes the world better for everyone.

Something I've learned in life is that idealists spend most of their time disappointed.

The reality is there is insufficient trust in the system to allow it to work.

I do not trust that the average dive op is going to allow me to dive if I present them my physicians waiver. As has been pointed out, they have no obligation to accept the waiver. This creates an unbalanced relationship where I'm being asked to agree to provide a fair amount of personal data but they have no reciprocal agreement to accept the information I provide.

And this lack of trust is not unfounded, people with waivers are turned away or asked to get a local doctor's physical all the time. I'm not interested in having my vacation ruined by the ignorance of a dive op who confuses themselves with a neurologist conversant in hyperbaric medicine.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Something I've learned in life is that idealists spend most of their time disappointed.

The reality is there is insufficient trust in the system to allow it to work.

I do not trust that the average dive op is going to allow me to dive if I present them my physicians waiver. As has been pointed out, they have no obligation to accept the waiver. This creates an unbalanced relationship where I'm being asked to agree to provide a fair amount of personal data but they have no reciprocal agreement to accept the information I provide.

And this lack of trust is not unfounded, people with waivers are turned away or asked to get a local doctor's physical all the time. I'm not interested in having my vacation ruined by the ignorance of a dive op who confuses themselves with a neurologist conversant in hyperbaric medicine.

I'm not an idealist, but I do have ideals, and I do think that most of us try in one way or another to approach our ideals.

I have not experienced, or read, or heard about, an occasion where a diver was refused or forced to see a local doctor. I don't doubt it has happened, but I do doubt that it happens all the time.

You speak of your mistrust of dive ops, and of their ignorance, yet you seem willing to breathe their air and ride in their boats and jump into the ocean on their say-so: You seem willing to go to some lengths in your haste to put your very life in their hands.

You quote Jacques Cousteau on your posts ("We have faith, We can hope, We can work..."), and like you, I admire him tremendously: I wonder what HE would think about all of this? And I wonder, aren't you the idealist?

 

[Sas]

I have not experienced, or read, or heard about, an occasion where a diver was refused or forced to see a local doctor. I don't doubt it has happened, but I do doubt that it happens all the time.

I have. Stupid dive ops who don't have any knowledge about medical conditions making judgements on divers who already have medical clearance.

You speak of your mistrust of dive ops, and of their ignorance, yet you seem willing to breathe their air and ride in their boats and jump into the ocean on their say-so: You seem willing to go to some lengths in your haste to put your very life in their hands.

I trust dive ops to do what I pay them to do - drive me to a dive site. I do not trust them to make medical decisions for me, because they have no medical training. I wouldn't trust my dive doctor to drive me out in a boat, nor fill up a tank for me.