Tipping question

[NAM001]

This living wage thing is really out of hand, another form of welfare in my opinion. You contract a service for a price and that is all that should be expected. If the shop pays a guide 100$ and the guide can’t live on it, he shouldn’t take the job. This living wage thing is no better than going to a resteraunt and getting a 10 dollar meal and being charged 20 for it once they add on all the taxes and forced tips for you. Tips are not part of the wage. It is a gratuity for going above and beyond not for showing up. In this regard, dive masters get a raw deal. Nothing irks me more than getting on a boat after paying for the trip with DM’s provided and when underway the captain gets on the speaker and says "by the way the DM’s are not paid , all they get is your tips.” Be nice to them because they are rigging your gear. So its guilt tipping. I hate getting a room quoted for 60 a night and paying 90. If you are going to force/guilt the tip/fee system then tell consumers up front what is expected for tips. OOPS but then this won’t be a tip, it would be taxable wages ect. It is pay that bypasses the establishment book keeping. After all I don’t know a single waitress that makes 2 dollars an hour. Its 2 an hour plus 200 a night of unreported tip income. Perhaps they should be tipping the customer because theey make a whole lot more than me. Lastly if a guide is going to be tipped the accepted tip should be a group tip to avoid the guilt pressuring aspect. I don’t have any problem with boats that say that the DM pay will be split amongst the passengers as long as it is up front notification. After that its like using the pay toilet and then having to pay extra for TP.

100$ / day isn't a living wage. A recent article I read recently put that at around 21$/hr based on 8 hours. A living wage could be described as the income required to meet basic needs.

Granted this guide more than likely did this as a sideline or favour to the shop, I would say that at least an extra 20$-25$ a day wouldn't be misplaced. Given that you rate him as one of the 'most professional', and were very satisfied, I'd even consider a touch higher than that.

 

[Wookie]

This living wage thing is really out of hand, another form of welfare in my opinion. You contract a service for a price and that is all that should be expected. If the shop pays a guide 100$ and the guide can’t live on it, he shouldn’t take the job. This living wage thing is no better than going to a resteraunt and getting a 10 dollar meal and being charged 20 for it once they add on all the taxes and forced tips for you. Tips are not part of the wage. It is a gratuity for going above and beyond not for showing up. In this regard, dive masters get a raw deal. Nothing irks me more than getting on a boat after paying for the trip with DM’s provided and when underway the captain gets on the speaker and says "by the way the DM’s are not paid , all they get is your tips.” Be nice to them because they are rigging your gear. So its guilt tipping. I hate getting a room quoted for 60 a night and paying 90. If you are going to force/guilt the tip/fee system then tell consumers up front what is expected for tips. OOPS but then this won’t be a tip, it would be taxable wages ect. It is pay that bypasses the establishment book keeping. After all I don’t know a single waitress that makes 2 dollars an hour. Its 2 an hour plus 200 a night of unreported tip income. Perhaps they should be tipping the customer because theey make a whole lot more than me. Lastly if a guide is going to be tipped the accepted tip should be a group tip to avoid the guilt pressuring aspect. I don’t have any problem with boats that say that the DM pay will be split amongst the passengers as long as it is up front notification. After that its like using the pay toilet and then having to pay extra for TP.

So, out of curiosity, lets say 2 identical boats, one with a volunteer crew and one with a paid crew. Let's say these 2 hypothetical boats are in the same southeast Texas destination, and one charges $140 per trip more than the other. The one that charges more pays their crew a real living wage, more than any other liveaboard in the world, in fact, and includes nitrox, beer, and wine in the charter price. Lets also think they carry 10 fewer passengers. They otherwise have identical schedules, dock in the same place, and maybe share a parking lot. The one that charges more tells you that tips aren't as important as a trip review, so good or bad, the owner pays his crew and all he wants is a trip review.

Which boat chooses to leave because the other boat is the one selected based on price?

I don't believe in your philosophy, because it doesn't work, and I can prove it. Folks will not pay more for the same service if given a choice. If you own a bar and the beer costs a dollar more a bottle and the waitstaff gets paid what they did before tips, the customers would find a bar where the beer was cheaper.

 

[cbm32]

Not in the Vancouver area there aren't. Those that get by in that area on that amount of money are not 'living', they are 'existing'.

According to the median incomes listed on this website, there must be a whole lot of people existing in Vancouver instead of living.....

Vancouver, British Columbia City Salary, Average Salaries | PayScale Canada

 

[Scubagolf]

I would treat him as an employee, not a business owner, and tip 20% based on the good review you gave.

 

[gcarter]

Not in the Vancouver area there aren't. Those that get by in that area on that amount of money are not 'living', they are 'existing'.

1st world problems. What you call 'existing' is significantly more comfortable a life, including health care access regardless of personal resources, than is enjoyed by many millions of people around the world. Can their lot be improved? Of course. But overstating your case does not help you make it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

So, out of curiosity, lets say 2 identical boats, one with a volunteer crew and one with a paid crew. Let's say these 2 hypothetical boats are in the same southeast Texas destination, and one charges $140 per trip more than the other. The one that charges more pays their crew a real living wage, more than any other liveaboard in the world, in fact, and includes nitrox, beer, and wine in the charter price. Lets also think they carry 10 fewer passengers. They otherwise have identical schedules, dock in the same place, and maybe share a parking lot. The one that charges more tells you that tips aren't as important as a trip review, so good or bad, the owner pays his crew and all he wants is a trip review.

Which boat chooses to leave because the other boat is the one selected based on price?

I don't believe in your philosophy, because it doesn't work, and I can prove it. Folks will not pay more for the same service if given a choice. If you own a bar and the beer costs a dollar more a bottle and the waitstaff gets paid what they did before tips, the customers would find a bar where the beer was cheaper.

I think the problem is that the customers are basing their decisions on incomplete information. If I knew the difference between how the two boats operate, I would choose the one that costs more. Same with, say, restaurants and bars. I'm happy to pay more for a beer in Europe because I know the bartender has health insurance and paid holidays.

 

[Wookie]

I think the problem is that the customers are basing their decisions on incomplete information. If I knew the difference between how the two boats operate, I would choose the one that costs more. Same with, say, restaurants and bars. I'm happy to pay more for a beer in Europe because I know the bartender has health insurance and paid holidays.

And I happen to agree with you. I got this way when airlines started to charge more for legroom, baggage, drinks, etc. Yes, I was very bummed when Southwest left Key West, because I'd rather pay a set price, book early so I can have an exit row, know that even though I usually only check one bag, not have to growl at my neighbor for putting a monster bag in the overhead and another under the seat in front of her that I have to trip over getting in and out of my seat. I wanted to be able to sell a seat on my boat and say that there was nothing more to buy. Period.

Tips are used as a rough estimate of how well the crew did, however. Yes, if you have Canadians or Europeans, the tips will tend to be less than if you have Americans, but generally, we get Americans anyway. I'd much rather have someone review the trip and tell the world how we did (this can, of course, be a double edged sword) but most would rather throw a couple of hundred in the tip basket than give us 15 minutes of fame, or infamy. Either way, tip or legitimate feedback, I don't care one way or the other.

 

[mikeycanuk]

When we did our Nav course with our favorite instructor we took him out for lunch+beer. He told us it was the first time anytime had ever done that.

 

[NAM001]

There is certain expectation that when you enter into an agreement that the price quoted is the trip price. I dont hink that any one has a problem with tipping. Tipping is in excess of what the employee makes with his salery. To many boat operators use customer tips as a replacement for them paying for services, you get hands and DM's all at the price of under th4e table expences and as an amployer you are not parviding the crew with the appropriate compensation. Your example is an unfare twist to the argument to get sympathy for one side of the argument. You would have the same problem if you took a cruise and didnt find out till you flew to the port and got to the ticket line that the 400 price quoted did not include port taxes fuel charge and customary 15% tip of emloyees. because employees work for tips only. No boat operator will honestly advertise how the crew gets paid. I have been on too many boats where only the captain gets paid and the crew lives on tips. Why do they get costomers???? The customers dont know better. The excuse of The customer should just know how it works, dont hack it. NOt a bit of of what they are tipped (generally) gets reported, no taxes paid, no social secutrity gets paid ect. ect. ect. so the boat operator can advertise the lowest price. And yes after making a significant trip to get to a dive location. You dont just toss a franlklin out pre person to dive. Your competitor in freport always told us what the trip price included. We knew who was being paid with our passage and who was not. We knew ahead of time to expect to cover the cooks and hands and made a gruop tip. There was no guilt cause it was all up front before you bought your passage. So tipping is not so much the issue as much as how the tips are obtained.

And your example: YOu are absolutely right. Those employees are not working for taxable wages they are working for under the table wages and quite often make more than you or I.

So, out of curiosity, lets say 2 identical boats, one with a volunteer crew and one with a paid crew. Let's say these 2 hypothetical boats are in the same southeast Texas destination, and one charges $140 per trip more than the other. The one that charges more pays their crew a real living wage, more than any other liveaboard in the world, in fact, and includes nitrox, beer, and wine in the charter price. Lets also think they carry 10 fewer passengers. They otherwise have identical schedules, dock in the same place, and maybe share a parking lot. The one that charges more tells you that tips aren't as important as a trip review, so good or bad, the owner pays his crew and all he wants is a trip review.

Which boat chooses to leave because the other boat is the one selected based on price?

I don't believe in your philosophy, because it doesn't work, and I can prove it. Folks will not pay more for the same service if given a choice. If you own a bar and the beer costs a dollar more a bottle and the waitstaff gets paid what they did before tips, the customers would find a bar where the beer was cheaper.

 

[ferretchen]

The conversation here shows why tipping is unpopular in many places: it places an unsolvable dilemma upon the shoulders of the customer. I like rewarding people for good effort, but I don't like being placed in a situation where I have to make the right decision but have insufficient information to make a good decision, yet will be judged on the results. I'd like to dive here again and would like to make a good impression, so in order to avoid being considered a cheapskate will have to pay, whether or not it's expected or required. It seems impolite (not on the part of the divemaster, just of the culture at large, or perhaps the shop management). The only way to solve these problems is to ask up front, which also places the customer in an awkward place, since you are placing yourself at the mercy of someone when you ask them "So, should I pay you more?" I suppose another way to solve this problem would be for the shop to make these things clear up front, but then from their point of view - if they're good to their people - what shop would want to tell people not to pay their associates or employes extra money?

The whole thing reminds me of being 14 and trying to ask a girl out for the first time. Like that situation, I suppose the best solution is to buck up and ask the question up front, and damn the consequences