Training prereq.

[texdiveguy]

Am I reading this correctly.....with the National Association for Cave Diving (NACD) is it possible to go from an Open Water diver with minimal diving experience directly to Cavern then Intro. Cave and finally Full Cave without ness. taking any other scuba courses such as basic nitrox, adv. nitrox/deco, etc.. Surly I am missing something here?

NACD

 

[Meng_Tze]

I think you have some answers on TDS?

 

[GDI]

You may have missed this part here:

Cavern Diving
The cavern diving course is taught in a minimum of two days and includes classroom lectures, field exercises, open water line drills and a minimum of four cavern dives. This course emphasizes planning, procedures, environment, propulsion techniques, buoyancy skills, problem solving, equipment modification and the focuses on the specialized needs of the cavern diver.

Purpose: To teach the safe exploration of the cavern environment within specified limits. The course develops and establishes minimum skills, knowledge, dive planning abilities, problem solving procedures and the basic abilities to safely cavern dive.

Prerequisites: Advanced open water or equivalent or 15 logged non training open water dives with open water certification.
.

If you think about this, this is not out of line with any other agency towards a cavern certifcation. If a diver comes in and decides to do Cavern to Cave then they will be doing training with the intent to educate them and keep them away from developing bad habits. Given the number of Open Water divers within the State of Florida and the number of accessable cavern/cave systems this is not a bad approach. It is better to educate them early and develop good practices then to pull them out of the caves to an awaiting body bag.

In truth the likely hood that a newly certified advanced openwater diver having 19 dives total or a diver having a simialr perceived skill set level, that being only 19 life time dives to pass the cavern class would require a lot of work under a good instructor. The Instructor will assess the student cavern diver before any overhead training progresses (Min of 4 dives to complete OW cert + 15 Non-training dives= 19 OW dives Minimum). That being said the diver would do a minimum of 4 dives at cavern, 4 at Intro-to-cave, 4 at Apprentice-to-cave and 4 at cave totaling 16 dives + their needed 19 to even start the class = 35 total life time dives. Almost half their life time dives under the tutalige of a Cave Instructor.

Every Cave instructor I know recommends that the student has at least a nitrox class before doing Cavern or Intro-to-cave. Many will teach this as an addition to the course. At the Apprentice-to-Cave level Most recommend that the student have Adv-Nitrox/Deco Procedures. At this level these principals are discussed regardless whether the student has it or not and is worked into as part of the class before the student moves onto Cave. Apprentice is a termed (time period limited) certification. The student has many things here to get use to before the instructor will advance them into full cave. The Cavern and Intro-to-Cave certifications both are NO-Deco diving single tank only levels.(Intro-to cave to have a dual orifice valve) Training can be conducted in doubles at the descretion of the Instructor. At Apprentice it is a doubles class.

 

[texdiveguy]

Thanks for the input.....as I still read the course descriptions you are not required under NACD standards to have even basic nitrox or deco to finish full cave or any other training outside of these 2 course levels--cavern//intro. .... I find this surprising. Not trying to start any riff....but was just surprised at the lack of other required course work that is mandatory to get certd Full Cave under these guidelines.

 

[texdiveguy]

I think you have some answers on TDS?

Thats correct.

 

[TSandM]

Isn't it possible, though, to do cavern through full cave as one long, eight or nine day course? Do instructors who teach this require those students to have done Adv Nitrox/Deco before presenting for the class? At least in Florida, it seems as though it would be difficult to execute most full cave level dives without incurring some amount of mandatory deco. Or is that part of the Full Cave curriculum? (I ask, realizing I could probably go look it up somewhere, but I'm too lazy this morning. I know GUE includes decompression in their Cave 2 class, but I don't know about anybody else's.)

 

[carolrose]

I would assume that when you're moving into cave training, you are taking your training pretty seriously, and that you have a certain level of personal responsibility in covering all your bases as far as what you need to know to continue down that path as safely as possible. I don't think the standards should necessarily be your only resource for judging what you need to progress--at that level, you should have done plenty of additional research of your own and taken the steps regardless of what standards dictate that you feel are most prudent.

 

[GDI]

Thanks for the input.....as I still read the course descriptions you are not required under NACD standards to have even basic nitrox or deco to finish full cave or any other training outside of these 2 course levels--cavern//intro. .... I find this surprising. Not trying to start any riff....but was just surprised at the lack of other required course work that is mandatory to get certd Full Cave under these guidelines.

I do not think you are starting a anti NACD thing here, lets go past that. Its/or can be a good discussion going here.

No it's not, but the NACD is not the only agency that pre-req this way for cave. At Apprentice deco procedures are instructed (as they pertain to cave). breathing Nitrox doesn't stop you from getting DCS.

The instructors highly recommend it.


Counter Question:
Really why should it be mandatory? Why should it be considered a lacking of course work not to have it?

Full cave has a max depth limit of 130 ft (there are other cave classes) yes hitting is a nature of the beast, so therefore at Apprentice level deco is talked about

 

[texdiveguy]

I do not think you are starting a anti NACD thing here, lets go past that. Its/or can be a good discussion going here.

No it's not, but the NACD is not the only agency that pre-req this way for cave. At Apprentice deco procedures are instructed (as they pertain to cave). breathing Nitrox doesn't stop you from getting DCS.

The instructors highly recommend it.


Counter Question:
Really why should it be mandatory? Why should it be considered a lacking of course work not to have it?

Full cave has a max depth limit of 130 ft (there are other cave classes) yes hitting is a nature of the beast, so therefore at Apprentice level deco is talked about

Thanks for your comments and input.

Maybe just talking about 'deco' as it pertains to extended range cave diving is all that is ness. as is an min. of O/W training for a full cave certed diver. Sure you can always do dives within NDL and if deco is required as a result of a diving situation it can be preformed on AIR assuming the gas management has been done properly. And I am sure most instructor strongly recommend a student to have additional courses prior to full cave...but it still appears lacking to me at least reading the published standards.

 

[contender]

Thanks for your comments and input.

Maybe just talking about 'deco' as it pertains to extended range cave diving is all that is ness. as is an min. of O/W training for a full cave certed diver. Sure you can always do dives within NDL and if deco is required as a result of a diving situation it can be preformed on AIR assuming the gas management has been done properly. And I am sure most instructor strongly recommend a student to have additional courses prior to full cave...but it still appears lacking to me at least reading the published standards.

Many of the Instructors will teach Adv. nitrox & Deco as part of the Apprentice/ Full Cave class if you don't already have it. Instead of posting this on several boards, why don't you come down here and get cave certified and then see if you still feel the same way. If you are already cave certified why don't you rewrite the standards to what you think they should be and send them to the NACD board for approval. Either way do something about it or take NAUI's cave program and quit worrying about the NACD's pre-reqs.