Tying Knots for primary and back up lights.and twist tying knots to regs with o rings

[headhunter]

I think his point was whether or not I feel that it is DIR... and I base my opinion on my GUE training, and what I have read "straight from the horse's mouth" on Quest.

Got it! I misread his quote to have used what I call "the general you", meaning "everyone out there".

Christian

 

[cdennyb]

How could this ever be "irrelevant" in the DIR forum, where only DIR answers are appropriate?

Christian

without going into great detail on the matter...
whether or not someone calls a certain method of gear attachment DIR or not is not the question. Personal preference does not enter into the discussion or logic involved in doing something a certain way. The ONLY thing that should be considered is the ease and simplicity of the method, the implications of a problem affecting the method and the result of the proposed method of attachment if and when a situation should change.
That's all my wording in the post was aimed at. So from this standpoint, Rich's personal opinion would not be rellevent, only the logical facts and details of actually attaching the snap to the pri hose.
Try not to read into the post anything more. It's not a personal attack or anything like that. Simply a statment that DIR is a fundamental set of principles and methods with a specific reason, regardless of someone's "idea" of how they should do it.
thanks
db

 

[JeffG]

The ONLY thing that should be considered is the ease and simplicity of the method, the implications of a problem affecting the method and the result of the proposed method of attachment if and when a situation should change.

OK Then....your solution

If I have a pri clipped off and I'm on the stage bottle and the buddy has a problem and in the really remote chance all these things happen at the exact same time, I can twist off the pri and donate it. Since the backup wouldn't reach you, my thinking is you'd want to be able to get the reg in your mouth as soon as possible and not wait for me to unclip it. Right?

Is clearly a convolution and you a making a very simple situation into a good chance of a CF

You always donate what you are breathing and go to your backup around your neck. And after that is done, you now can spend the time in solving the issues that created the OOG situation in the first place.

Thats why your solution isn't DIR.

and your cryptic comment

hmmmm. very interesting there Rich

left a lot open for interpretation

 

[headhunter]

without going into great detail on the matter...
whether or not someone calls a certain method of gear attachment DIR or not is not the question. Personal preference does not enter into the discussion or logic involved in doing something a certain way. The ONLY thing that should be considered is the ease and simplicity of the method, the implications of a problem affecting the method and the result of the proposed method of attachment if and when a situation should change.
That's all my wording in the post was aimed at. So from this standpoint, Rich's personal opinion would not be rellevent, only the logical facts and details of actually attaching the snap to the pri hose.
Try not to read into the post anything more. It's not a personal attack or anything like that. Simply a statment that DIR is a fundamental set of principles and methods with a specific reason, regardless of someone's "idea" of how they should do it.
thanks
db

I understand what you are saying now. Many well respected people on ScubaBoard would agree with you when you say, "This is a perfect example to use the o-ring/zip tie method."

However, in THIS forum, I believe that whether or not a solution conforms to DIR's "fundamental set of principles and methods" is relevant and MUST be a consideration when giving an answer.

Had this question been asked in the Hogarthian Diving forum, then I would agree that all answers supported by logic would be helpful to the person asking the question. But because the question is posted in the DIR forum, the answer must be a DIR answer that GUE would be in agreement with.

I would still agree with you that "someone's 'idea' of how they should do it" would be irrelevant unless sharing their idea is simply used for the purpose of helping them gain a better understanding of a specific DIR method and the specific reasons behind it. So explanations using a comparison to other methods not withstanding, it is my understanding that only whether an answer "is" or "is not" a DIR compliant would be relevant in this forum.

At this point, I guess that we are probably in agreement.

Thanks for the clarification.

Christian

 

[cdennyb]

OK, I've justified, in semi-detailed explanation(s), "why" it would be better to use a heavy o-ring and zip tie to secure a bolt snap to the pri reg. Somehow the word DIR got interjected into the message(s) and now we have a disagreement on whether or not the old way of attaching things you can't lose with the o-ring/zip tie is still the DIR way of doing it.
Rich, you said as of about 2 years ago it isn't considered DIR, why not? And who or what is "Quest" and what authority do they have to justify a change in the method?
I tend to rely on the WKPP methods of attachment and what I've related so far and in detailed reasoning behind it, parallels their way of doing it right. Even though I don't do caves, the regulator and 7' hose getting hung up on something would easily 'breakfree' with minimal effort whereas cave line would have to be attacked with knife and detailed focused attention. Not my idea of a correct scenario. Why am I wrong?
So now, I'm supposed to accept that the old way is wrong and was wrong at the time, even though it was decided at that time it was right. Hmmm. I'm so confused.
Shed some light people, explain to me why the attachment of a bolt snap with cave line is better than the temporary way or o-ring/zip tie. Forget the word DIR and give me a logical reason why it's changed from a tried and true method used on hundreds of true DIR dives.
thanks
db

 

[JeffG]

OK, I've justified, in semi-detailed explanation(s), "why" it would be better to use a heavy o-ring and zip tie to secure a bolt snap to the pri reg. Somehow the word DIR got interjected into the message(s)

Ummmm....We are in the DIR forum

and now we have a disagreement on whether or not the old way of attaching things you can't lose with the o-ring/zip tie is still the DIR way of doing it.

Actually...there is no disagreement..in a matter of speaking

Rich, you said as of about 2 years ago it isn't considered DIR, why not? And who or what is "Quest"

Don't know what Quest is...but you understand DIR and WKPP...Interesting

and what authority do they have to justify a change in the method?

You should ask GI3

I tend to rely on the WKPP methods of attachment

and they are the ones that changed it

and what I've related so far and in detailed reasoning behind it, parallels their way of doing it right. Even though I don't do caves, the regulator and 7' hose getting hung up on something would easily 'breakfree' with minimal effort whereas cave line would have to be attacked with knife and detailed focused attention. Not my idea of a correct scenario. Why am I wrong?
So now, I'm supposed to accept that the old way is wrong and was wrong at the time, even though it was decided at that time it was right. Hmmm. I'm so confused.
Shed some light people, explain to me why the attachment of a bolt snap with cave line is better than the temporary way or o-ring/zip tie. Forget the word DIR and give me a logical reason why it's changed from a tried and true method used on hundreds of true DIR dives.
thanks
db

I'm thinking more and more that you are just a troll

 

[headhunter]

OK, I've justified, in semi-detailed explanation(s), "why" it would be better to use a heavy o-ring and zip tie to secure a bolt snap to the pri reg. Somehow the word DIR got interjected into the message(s) and now we have a disagreement on whether or not the old way of attaching things you can't lose with the o-ring/zip tie is still the DIR way of doing it.
Rich, you said as of about 2 years ago it isn't considered DIR, why not? And who or what is "Quest" and what authority do they have to justify a change in the method?
I tend to rely on the WKPP methods of attachment and what I've related so far and in detailed reasoning behind it, parallels their way of doing it right. Even though I don't do caves, the regulator and 7' hose getting hung up on something would easily 'breakfree' with minimal effort whereas cave line would have to be attacked with knife and detailed focused attention. Not my idea of a correct scenario. Why am I wrong?
So now, I'm supposed to accept that the old way is wrong and was wrong at the time, even though it was decided at that time it was right. Hmmm. I'm so confused.
Shed some light people, explain to me why the attachment of a bolt snap with cave line is better than the temporary way or o-ring/zip tie. Forget the word DIR and give me a logical reason why it's changed from a tried and true method used on hundreds of true DIR dives.
thanks
db

db,

I know you've asked Rich the questions above, but I thought I would post a thread for you that you may find helpful with the "Why was the o-ring/zip tie method DIR in the past but now it's not?' question.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?threadid=63468&s=

Also, DIR/Quest is GUE's magazine for DIR divers. The editor is Jarrod Jablonski. Here is a link to more information about Quest:

http://www.gue.com/dirquest/index.html

Finally, in THIS forum the word DIR will always be interjected into your message(s) because it is the "DIR forum".

Hope this helps.

I actually look forward to reading the answers to your questions. I would also like to learn all of the "whys" behind the system, since I am not yet DIR myself. I do plan on taking the class sometime soon though.

Respectfully,

Christian

 

[RichLockyer]

Rich, you said as of about 2 years ago it isn't considered DIR, why not?

As I mentioned above, there is no NEED for the breakaway. It is true that it was only used on items that could not be dropped, but there is still no need for it. Likewise with the hand-tight 2nd, though I understand that GUE is still teaching this for staged cave diving only.

And who or what is "Quest" and what authority do they have to justify a change in the method?

DIRQuest is the GUE mailing list, and the particular authority that I paid most attention to was GI. He has been inactive on the board since he stepped aside and turned the ship over to Casey, but JJ and Anthony are very active on DIRQuest.
Kinda hard to get more DIR than those three guys

Even though I don't do caves, the regulator and 7' hose getting hung up on something would easily 'breakfree' with minimal effort whereas cave line would have to be attacked with knife and detailed focused attention. Not my idea of a correct scenario. Why am I wrong?

How would it get hung up? The 7' hose is a closed loop. Worst case, you might get some line over the 2nd stage, but it would be no different than if the line were to get hung on the nose of a stage or argon bottle. It's not going to get "wrapped" or keyholed.

So now, I'm supposed to accept that the old way is wrong and was wrong at the time, even though it was decided at that time it was right. Hmmm. I'm so confused.

DIR is and always has been an evolution.

Three things that have changed within the last 5 years are:
1 - No more breakaway attachments. The potential CF resulting from an accidental detachment outweighs the benefit of the breakaway.
2 - No hand-tight 2nd stages. The wrench needs to be carried anyways, since you can never be 100% positive that every 2nd you encounter will be only hand-tight. If the wrench is needed, then there is no reason to attempt to eliminate the need for it since it cannot be guaranteed to be 100%.
As I said, GUE is still teaching this for staged cave classes, but never for open water situations. There have been many reports of divers having their 2nd come off because of this practice.
3 - The butt D-ring. This is a good one. George doesn't want anyone to copy him without knowing exactly why. He used it to store extra reels on his longer dives because the hip D-ring got too crowded. Next thing he hears is that guys are storing reels there and going into wrecks.
GUE still teaches the butt, D-ring, but only as a place to clip off the lift bag while it it stowed. Spools go in the pocket. Personally, I clip the bag to the hip D-ring.

Shed some light people, explain to me why the attachment of a bolt snap with cave line is better than the temporary way or o-ring/zip tie. Forget the word DIR and give me a logical reason why it's changed from a tried and true method used on hundreds of true DIR dives.

Why is it needed? Like I said... after about 30 (probably less now that I think about it) dives, the O-ring retaining my SPG broke. I inspect the entire rig very carefully before packing for a trip and noted nothing, or I would have replaced it. A quick once-over before the dive itself also revealed nothing. It broke while I was unclipping to check my pressure, leaving me with a dangling SPG and my buddy's post-dive razzing about my "reef wrecker" (I give him hell about his console).

Why did I have a breakaway there? I thought it was DIR because I saw it in a picture. I never did understand the NEED for it on the SPG.
Similarly with the reg... there's no need for it, as it is never donated from the clipped-off position.
If there's no need for it, and it introduces a failure point, or a MORE LIKELY failure, then don't do it.

If I'm on a stage or deco bottle and my primary is clipped off (and those are the only times it would be clipped off), and I happen to drag the bottom and snag the primary on something, which of the following would I prefer:
1 - I feel the tension on the D-ring, reach down, and clear the entanglement.
2 - The breakaway gives way, the reg pulls past my shoulder, dragging the line back into my valves and down around my canister. Now my reg has been dragged through the silt, as well as making a mess.

 

[cdennyb]

Well...thanks Rich for all those detailed answers to my questions. I can relate to the "drag the broken loose second stage in the muck" scenario. Makes sense now that I see that CF opportunity.

+++++++
Three things that have changed within the last 5 years are:
1 - No more breakaway attachments. The potential CF resulting from an accidental detachment outweighs the benefit of the breakaway.
2 - No hand-tight 2nd stages. The wrench needs to be carried anyways, since you can never be 100% positive that every 2nd you encounter will be only hand-tight. If the wrench is needed, then there is no reason to attempt to eliminate the need for it since it cannot be guaranteed to be 100%.
As I said, GUE is still teaching this for staged cave classes, but never for open water situations. There have been many reports of divers having their 2nd come off because of this practice.
3 - The butt D-ring. This is a good one. George doesn't want anyone to copy him without knowing exactly why. He used it to store extra reels on his longer dives because the hip D-ring got too crowded. Next thing he hears is that guys are storing reels there and going into wrecks.
GUE still teaches the butt, D-ring, but only as a place to clip off the lift bag while it it stowed. Spools go in the pocket. Personally, I clip the bag to the hip D-ring.
+++++++
agree 100% with no.#s 2 and 3 here. I guess I stand on my logic for item no#1 though. Since I don't do caves I guess it wouldn't apply to me. Thanks for the enlightening conversation on this subject. I admire your ability to stay calm during a semi-heated exchange like this.
I'll give GI a call later this weekend and chat with him about it.

and JeffG...
screw your comment about me being a troll. Anyone who's had the opportunity to chat back and forth on several different subjects knows I don't "troll" about anything. In the future, you'll know me a little better now. No hard feelings. I'd appreciate an honest civilized exchange like Rich has done in his last post. Look forward to future engagments with you as well.
Later all.
db

 

[RichLockyer]

Thanks for the enlightening conversation on this subject. I admire your ability to stay calm during a semi-heated exchange like this.
I'll give GI a call later this weekend and chat with him about it.

No problem and thanks.
It'll be interesting to hear GI's comments.