Understating Qualification on Charter Boats

[EFX]

Checking certs in a way of insulating themselves from charges should you go and get yourself killed while doing the dive and nothing else. Unless you are in a paid position on the dive or sponsoring it in some way, you have no legal requirement to provide services in your certified role which you are not acting in. Good Samaritan rules insulate you to assist without risk should you choose. I don't know if a certification agency could sanction you after the fact for not aiding... Morally? That is up to you......

If you willy-nilly go off on your own to rescue a panicked diver and get yourself killed it's on you. Good samaritan laws should protect the operator. But, that's wasn't my scenario. I'm talking about an AOW diver who is asked to help and not knowing any better goes to the rescue, gets climbed on, and because the fool didn't have his reg in drowns. Other divers heard this directive so it's backed up in court that the op ordered the rescue and since they didn't check certs, or more importantly at the time ask for cert level, would put the blame on the op. California excepted since it is implied by mathauck0814 there is no cert level that gets signed on a waiver.

 

[mathauck0814]

I'm talking about an AOW diver who is asked to help and not knowing any better goes to the rescue, gets climbed on, and because the fool didn't have his reg in drowns. Other divers heard this directive so it's backed up in court that the op ordered the rescue and since they didn't check certs, or more importantly at the time ask for cert level, would put the blame on the op. California excepted since it is implied by mathauck0814 there is no cert level that gets signed on a waiver.

(emphasis mine)

Now I'm really curious where you're diving that an operator can "order" you do to do anything? Where do you legally have no choice in the matter and must abide the orders of a boat crew?

Just saw Bob's note, so I'll add - if there's an accident on the boat and you're on the boat (in the US) you're likely going to get named on the lawsuit. That's just sort of how lawyers work here. If the crew asks you to do something and you don't feel comfortable you say so and we'll ask someone else or do it ourselves. If the crew asks you to do something and you do it then you're generally covered by good samaritan law. The passengers are our responsibility, not yours (even if we asked you to help out). If you represent yourself as knowing something you don't, and we give way to your expertise and it's later shown that you weren't qualified and it worsened the situation or contributed to a more negative outcome for the victim, then the outcome for you is probably a little different.

You can always be sued. When you do everything in your power to be helpful and your nose is clean, those generally go away quickly and quietly on their own.

 

[Doctorfish]

I think mathauck is spot on with this. At the end of the day, I think we all have a moral responsibility to aid in a rescue on a voluntary and not forced basis. As an MD, I don't worry about litigation or lack of good Samaritan laws, just about doing the right thing to the best of my ability. You might get named in a suit, but so what? There is a world of difference between being named and being found negligent.

Easy enough, if you are a passenger and you are asked to do something beyond your ability, to say so to the person in charge, and not put yourself and others around you in harms way.

 

[Edward3c]

(emphasis mine)

Now I'm really curious where you're diving that an operator can "order" you do to do anything? Where do you legally have no choice in the matter and must abide the orders of a boat crew?

Just saw Bob's note, so I'll add - if there's an accident on the boat and you're on the boat (in the US) you're likely going to get named on the lawsuit. That's just sort of how lawyers work here. If the crew asks you to do something and you don't feel comfortable you say so and we'll ask someone else or do it ourselves. If the crew asks you to do something and you do it then you're generally covered by good samaritan law. The passengers are our responsibility, not yours (even if we asked you to help out). If you represent yourself as knowing something you don't, and we give way to your expertise and it's later shown that you weren't qualified and it worsened the situation or contributed to a more negative outcome for the victim, then the outcome for you is probably a little different.

You can always be sued. When you do everything in your power to be helpful and your nose is clean, those generally go away quickly and quietly on their own.

In the UK, a Charter would not ask to see diver qualifications as they’re just the water taxi taking divers to/from a site site. Its the trip organiser who needs to know as the responsibility to ensure the safety of the party is theirs. As such, the responsibility for dealing with diving incidents is the organisers, not the Charters. The only reason Charters started carrying O2 was because trip organisers wouldn't book them without it being available. There are a few Charters owned by the trip organiser which leads some to think Charters are liable.

I get a discussion of liability on every Automated External Deliberator course I run. Yes it is possible to get sued, but to be successful the claimant has to prove using the equipment made a condition worse. No claim has made it to a UK Court - yet, but money is often required to build a defence, hence why I like the BSAC membership 3rd Party Liability insurance.

 

[DogDiver]

I'm always up front regarding my credentials. When asked at the sign up desk and they ask for my highest cert. I will ask them, well my highest cert is Full Cave with Wakulla award, but you probably would rather see my NAUI Instructors Card instead. Letting the captain and crew know there is an extra set of eyes is comforting for them. Also I'm a Level I Trauma Nurse, so I'm a little more obligated to respond.


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[KeithG]

My assumption is that the op's want to know what level of dive proficiency you have reached. The implication is, in my case, since I have an MD cert I also have rescue training even though I don't also present my rescue card. In your case, I assume you couldn't get the advanced CCR trimix without also being deep certified. A lawyer might argue differntly but no op I know of you would keep you from that deep OC dive even though you preferred not to show your AOW or deep specialty card.

maybe it would help if we sat back and thought about what a cert is. it is a certificate of training. it is not a license of competence.

consider a diver holding a 20 year old rescue card with no dives since. they are rescue certified. they are not currently competent. it would be negligent for an operator to rely on them in any emergency that assumed rescue competence. this is kind of why your local police and fire workers say "thank you sir, now please step back and leave this to the trained professionals"

since our cards are just certifications and not licenses, there is no way any sane operator could justify using our cert level to decide to conscript some one into service. we are all just people on a boat. they can not make any assumptions about our competence.

 

[Ricky B]

anybody can sue anybody for any reason imaginable. They may not win, but since there is no penalty for bringing a frivolous lawsuit against another person, a lot of people try ... after all, it's easier than winning the lottery.

Actually there is a penalty for bringing a frivolous lawsuit: the lawyer doesn't get paid. All the PI lawyers I know don't like working for free. And they don't like suing people who don't have deep pockets to pay a judgment. The "frivolous lawsuits" are typically against government agencies, big corporations, and the like, all of whom have the means to pay a big judgment.

But if one is worried about being sued, there is a cheap solution. Speak to your insurance agent about whether a homeowner's or tenant's insurance will protect you from recreational liability. And if you're really worried, add an umbrella policy, which is usually pretty cheap (and more important for increasing your liability coverage for auto accidents).

 

[R-balljunkie]

II'm talking about an AOW diver who is asked to help and not knowing any better goes to the rescue, gets climbed on, and because the fool didn't have his reg in drowns.

is the fool the panicked diver, or the assumed rescuer?

I've never dove in the states, only overseas so i cant comment on how stringent the check process is.

A large percentage of my dives is backyard diving here....its a large community of divers who are in the water every weekend and we pretty much know each other, skill levels, who are the new divers and who to keep an eye on. Kind of a group policing action. We dont check cards here, but there's rules in place, i.e. have to take advanced diving course within 6 months or no diving.

Overseas, have to say its a flash of the card and fork over the cashola. I usually talk to the owner and the DM on the dive and tell them i'm here to take photo's..ill either be ahead of the group, or lagging behind...keep a loose eye on me and whoever im paired with...seems to work out for me, haven't been stuck with a newb so far or had a bad "paid" experience.

 

[flots am]

On most of the waivers it asks for highest certification level obtained not just any level. Getting barked at to retrieve a life preserver or hand one to a panicked diver is one thing but telling someone to actually assist them (which is what I was thinking of) is another. My level of training is my concern and not yours? Really? Maybe on your dive boat. I would think that op's have a moral obligation to know what level divers are at and strive to not put them in harms way, rescue or not. I would think that would be imporatant to lawyers in lawsuit. Then why bother asking about cert level (>= AOW) when diving on a 90 ft. wreck?

In an emergency, seconds count. This isn't just lip-service. The difference between panic or a medical problem and "back underwater and dead" can literally be a couple of seconds.

If I'm on a dive boat and see someone in the water who needs immediate assistance, I'll yell to the DM or whoever so they know what's going on, but the next thing that happens is that I'm going over the side to assist. At the very least, the first person on the scene can make sure the victim doesn't go back under.

Lawyers can deal with my insurance companies if they wish, but if there's anything I can do to save a live, I'm doing it.

flots.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

So much paranoia, so much misinformation as to the law. I am a trial lawyer and divemaster. I have been each for a long time. When Debbie and I dive with a operator, I disclose that I am a current and INSURED divemaster. I take that role seriously, and will help anyone in distress if within my ability. NWgrateful makes a few valid points, and I agree with his conclusion, but I have never worried about being sued due to competent diving and teaching and leading dives and assisting. As far as being stuck with someone on a dive, that doesn't happen unless one allows it. It does not happen if you dive with your own buddy or group, and your own profile, which most of the boats we have been on allow if you have a professional credential AND insurance. I have dove on boats without Debbie, and do not mind being paired with anyone. I let them know about me and learn about them in a pre-dive conversation. If they have little experience I find they will follow my leadership. If they have bad habits like wandering off or deviating from the dive profile, I correct them. Over scores if not hundreds of such pairings I have had exactly one diver who expressed resentment, and he then later apologized for his attitude. Each dive pro needs to choose their own practice, but I am a divemaster whenever I am diving. I've gotten some temporary gigs and free diving from simply being present and willing and competent to work with other divers, and also insured, both as assisting in instruction and as a dive leader.
DivemasterDennis