Understating Qualification on Charter Boats

[grantwiscour]

I like Dennis' thought/action process. My wife and I hold the SSI MD card (oh the horror!). We are competent and self-sufficient divers with @ 165 dives in varied locales including blue and brown water. We don't get teamed up with another very much because we are our own buddy team but it has happened a few times.

We have also invited a diver to join us at the local scuba parks because they were solo and we didn't want them to die. One guy at Athens SP looked like an accident waiting to happen so we let him join our threesome, buddied up into twos, and watched him like a hawk DM. In the end, he had an excess of weight, lost a fin (I recovered for him), didn't have a solid command of his fancy dive computer and had a plethora of fancy gear that some LDS sold him and didn't teach him to use properly and safely. The guy lived and made it back to pick up his wife from the mall before their trip home. The guy was rusty and needed more experience but had a good attitude and followed our instructions. My morale compass doesn't allow me to watch someone like that jump in the water right next to me and swim off by themselves. Athens SP doesn't get very deep but why not show some Texan Friendliness and increase the odds by doing the right thing? I remember when I was "new" and the divers who impacted my dives in both positive and negative ways. The potential liability in a situation like is this less than what I would call my responsibility to mankind.

As for rescue situations...if it is with my buddy or I am first on the scene I will take action and direct the rescue until turning over to EMT or someone with more training/experience. If I am not the primary, I will advise the crew, etc. that I am certified and experienced in EFR/CPR and that I am willing to help..."what can I do to assist?" Instead of worrying about cards I'm hoping that we don't lose a life.

 

[EFX]

(emphasis mine)Now I'm really curious where you're diving that an operator can "order" you do to do anything? Where do you legally have no choice in the matter and must abide the orders of a boat crew?

Bad choice of words on my part. I meant ask.

 

[Tigerman]

In an emergency, seconds count. This isn't just lip-service. The difference between panic or a medical problem and "back underwater and dead" can literally be a couple of seconds.

If I'm on a dive boat and see someone in the water who needs immediate assistance, I'll yell to the DM or whoever so they know what's going on, but the next thing that happens is that I'm going over the side to assist. At the very least, the first person on the scene can make sure the victim doesn't go back under.

Lawyers can deal with my insurance companies if they wish, but if there's anything I can do to save a live, I'm doing it.

flots.

In some countries, like here, if there's anything you could and should have done to help and you DON'T - that's when you have a problem.
If you watch someone have a medical emergency and just "sit down and watch" which was suggested earlier, you'd be in for a serious ****storm around here. You might be able to get away with "panicked" if you have zero FA training and zero experience with stressfull situations, but I wouldn't bet on them not finding out about my army background or the fact that we have two fire drills with FA refreshers every year at work.

Its kinda like not stopping at the scene of a car accident, which would be a criminal offense...

 

[Mustard Dave]

Therer is some nonsense spoken quite often on this subject. Mostly:

"If I say I am a DM / instructor, I will be expected to look after inexperienced divers."

Possibly. There are two ways to deal with this - either say "Certainly - my professional fees are $xxx per day.", or "Piss off! I'm on my holidays! Get your own staff!"

"If you lie about your certification level, you could be sued."

Why?

"Well...erm... if they had known you were a Rescue Diver / DM / Instructor, they may have called upon you for assistance."

To be sued for negligence, three criteria must be met:

• You owed somebody a duty of care
• You failed in that duty of care
• That failure caused a loss or injury

An OW diver is qualified to plan and execute dives with a buddy in conditions similar to those he trained in. In that situation, nobody owes any duty of care other than how a reasonable person would react. If that person is a crap diver, who should never have bee certified (and this is quite common), the liability is with the outfit that signed them off.

If the dive operator knew (or should have known) additional safety divers were needed, it is up to them to provide them. "Oh s**t! we have no RDs / Dms / Instructors." is not acceptable. The duty of care is with the dive operation to ensure suitably competent staff are ready.

In the event if an incident, you should act as any reasonable person would and help out to the best of your ability / training.

Understating your qualifications will do no harm, but it will yield no benefit. Just be open and there is nothing to worry about.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In some countries, like here, if there's anything you could and should have done to help and you DON'T - that's when you have a problem.
If you watch someone have a medical emergency and just "sit down and watch" which was suggested earlier, you'd be in for a serious ****storm around here. You might be able to get away with "panicked" if you have zero FA training and zero experience with stressfull situations, but I wouldn't bet on them not finding out about my army background or the fact that we have two fire drills with FA refreshers every year at work.

Its kinda like not stopping at the scene of a car accident, which would be a criminal offense...

It doesn't quite work that way in the USA, but it's not cut and dry either.

In order for someone to claim negligence against you, there are four criteria that must be met:

1. There existed a duty to act.
2. The duty was not fulfilled.
3. The circumstances that led to the breach of duty were foreseeable and/or preventable.
4. The breach led to or exacerbated an injury.

A recreationally-trained (non-pro) diver has no duty whatsoever to assist in an emergency. They can legally refuse to do so. However, if they do choose to help, they voluntarily create a duty, and are held to a "reasonable standard of care" based on their highest level of training ... in other words, what would someone at that level of training reasonably be expected to do.

People with professional level training (DM or above) are held to higher standards, and have an implicit duty to assist in an emergency. They are, however, still held to the standard of "reasonable care" for what they were trained to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

(Edit: Ah, I posted before reading the preceding post. I suppose repetition doesn't much hurt in this case).

 

[Edward3c]

With the multitude of certifying agencies it is impossible to know the rescue elements of each, or the changes/amendments as course content 'develops' over time.

As an example, it's not uncommon for all divers with Advanced in their title to be grouped together by the organiser, in relation to rescue skills/ability. However, a BSAC Advanced Diver is not only trained in administering O2, but in managing a complete rescue event.

If I'm not first on the scene I will follow the requests from whomever has control. It doesn't matter who has the higher qualification, they know the history of the event - I don't, but I will state my skill set.

 

[NAM001]

There were times when in a group that had diver who was a DM would go out on the boats for group trips. While on the boat he would present nothing other than the aow card. He wanted no confusion with the boat as to whether he was present for the purpose of acting as a DM for that group and relieving the boat of that responsibility.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

There's a popular dive charter in our area that has asked me several times to put him as a rider on my insurance policy. It isn't because I'm teaching a class, or working in any capacity as a DM while on the boat ... I'm just another paying customer. But having me (or any other diver DM or higher) satisfies the state requirement that he have an active DM on board during a charter.

I've refused to do it, not because of cost (it's negligible) but because doing so creates an implicit duty that would make me liable if one of his other clients were to have an accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[sheeper]

Some of this goes back to "what is a DM/instructor?". I dive with a number of people who worked as a DM or instructor 20 or more years ago doing the dropout/college scuba lifestyle. Real jobs, families, and life interdicted that and they have not worked in scuba for a long time. They no longer pay their "member fees" to the agencies, no pro insurance and even their skills are not as sharp as they once were. So yes....they have a "pro" card but they are not a pro. They would not be expected to have a higher skill level nor would they be expected to provide a level of assistance as a pro. Now a "working pro" (such as myself) would NEVER sit back and watch a problem without assisting. On a boat I identify myself to the captain and ask what can I do (been there a number of times). On boats I go out on regularly for my personal fun, the captain knows my level of certification and agrees not to spread that to other people on the boat (no free assistance!). I'm even more complex being a federal first responder in my "real life" job and being trained as an EMT. So I ALWAYS have a duty to act. That craps up my day frequently!

 

[Tigerman]

What craps your day up really is people being unable to just not be a walking incident waiting to happen