What kind of scuba training do you prefer?

[H2Andy]

i think your instructor should be your friend and supporter, not your enemy,
at least not in basic levels of training

that style may work for tech diving, but i don't think it belongs in OW, AOW,
Rescue, and other non-tech classes

 

[PavoDive]

You talking about Skin or Scuba class?

Skin, but we covered lots of things that were scuba, not only in the theory, but also in the "practice" (had to do a buddy breath drill with an imaginary reg while at 9' depth in the pool ). Those of us who completed (not all completed and even less were certified) felt a great deal of pride of having completed it, and surely learned a lot.

My scuba class was pretty much like most of nowadays classes, but I also learned a lot. I think different styles...

G.P.

 

[Gary D.]

i think your instructor should be your friend and supporter, not your enemy,
at least not in basic levels of training

that style may work for tech diving, but i don't think it belongs in OW, AOW,
Rescue, and other non-tech classes

Think about it this way.

You’re comfortable with removing your mask on your own when you PLAN on removing it.

You’re comfortable taking the reg out of your mouth when you PLAN on taking it out.

You’re fine with dropping your weight belt but only when you know your going to do it and have a firm grip on it.

These things DO happen in the real world and when you are least expecting it. They can happen from dive one to dive 1 million and one, you just never know.

All of a sudden the mask is off. When you inhale is when you notice an air problem not with full lungs. And the weight belt, it will up and take off like other things, without warning.

Now would you rather have these things happen in class with an instructor or have them happen for the first time with your rookie classmate who knows just as much as you do?

Those who think what I just described above is harsh, cruel or rough treatment need to find another sport. These things happen in the real world and are the cause of a lot of problems because of the lack of such training.

What I just described above was only a part of surviving the good old days.

By the time a person gets to AOW they should have these skills mastered and be able to react to correct the problem without even thinking about what has to be done prior to going on to higher steps in training.

These skills are just way important to be put on the back burner.

Gary D.

 

[H2Andy]

well... ok... but then that instructor better have practiced those skills COLD
with you, and test you only when you are both comfortable that the "accidents"
will start

 

[Gary D.]

well... ok... but then that instructor better have practiced those skills COLD
with you, and test you only when you are both comfortable that the "accidents"
will start

Exactly!

Gary D.

 

[Fly N Dive]

I think that this isn’t as much about "tricks" as it is about training, and once an instructor feels that a student is somewhat comfortable uw I think that these scenarios are a good teaching tool

 

[awestholm]

Think about it this way.

You’re comfortable with removing your mask on your own when you PLAN on removing it.

You’re comfortable taking the reg out of your mouth when you PLAN on taking it out.

You’re fine with dropping your weight belt but only when you know your going to do it and have a firm grip on it.

These things DO happen in the real world and when you are least expecting it. They can happen from dive one to dive 1 million and one, you just never know.

All of a sudden the mask is off. When you inhale is when you notice an air problem not with full lungs. And the weight belt, it will up and take off like other things, without warning.

Now would you rather have these things happen in class with an instructor or have them happen for the first time with your rookie classmate who knows just as much as you do?

Those who think what I just described above is harsh, cruel or rough treatment need to find another sport. These things happen in the real world and are the cause of a lot of problems because of the lack of such training.

What I just described above was only a part of surviving the good old days.

By the time a person gets to AOW they should have these skills mastered and be able to react to correct the problem without even thinking about what has to be done prior to going on to higher steps in training.

These skills are just way important to be put on the back burner.

Gary D.

This echoes what I said in the other thread. A student leaving o/w, who is now given permission to go and dive on his/her own, should be confident enough to deal with OOA, etc at depth under stress. I don't think having my air turned off when I'm ready for it in a shallow depth with absolutely no other stressful factors is adequate preperation for OOA in 50 feet of water.

Having my air flow stop at random is still much more relaxed than the situation described above (50 ft w/ possible current), but it goes a lot further towards preparing me for it.

When I'm training to participate in an activity where my life is on the line, I want the most realistic training possible.

 

[TSandM]

I don't know how far you guys are from your OW class, but I'm not far from mine.

Had somebody come up behind me in one of my first 4 OW dives and ripped the reg from my face, I most likely would have panicked, not understanding what was happening, and the experience would not have been constructive. Diving in a drysuit, in ice cold water, in maybe five feet of visibility, was all the stress I could handle. Surviving was my goal, and I needed all the help I could get to do that.

I am astonished by people who think that, by the end of one's OW class (assuming we are talking about the kind of OW class I had, which I have gathered is actually on the better end of what is out there) one should be capable of handling all exigencies with aplomb. That's absurd.

Thirty dives later, I'd love to do some dives where an instructor threw some challenges into the mix. In fact, I've been doing some things myself -- just simple things like flooding/clearing my mask, or taking it off and putting it back on, removing my regulator and replacing it and purging it, simply because I worry that I will lose facility with those skills by virtue of not having to use them. But I am a WHOLE lot more comfortable underwater than I was thirty dives ago. I can handle much more task-loading. I no longer panic if my buddy gets more than two feet away from me.

Looking back on my OW class, I think it should have contained more pure information, and not have been so focused on achieving minimal competence at required skills. And I think the standard on skills should have been higher, but at least for me, that would have required a significantly longer class. I don't think I met OW standards for diving skills (which everybody seems to define as producing a diver capable of going out and diving without instruction) until I finished AOW, if then.

I trained in general surgery, which is a very long and extremely demanding training with uncompromisingly high standards. But not everybody wants or needs to do that, and if you took the average OW student and used the described techniques with them, I think you would panic and terrify more people than you would teach, and put a lot of people off diving who, like me, were actually capable of learning to do it competently and with a great deal of enjoyment.

 

[Gac]

Snatching a reg out of my mouth might piss me off if I knew it was intentional. I've had my mask kicked off a few times and my reg was pulled out once on accident, and I've had no problems with retrieving either. Someone shutting off my valve without my knowledge would also really piss me off.
I've never come close to an actual OOA situation (on my side). I keep pretty good eyes on my guages and situation. Cutting off my air would certainly anger me. However, in a training environment, if my instructor said that *sometime* during the dive(s) he was going to take my mask off or pull a reg out or shut off my air, then I would consider that sufficient prior notificaiton to keep me from getting angerd and would probably facilitate my learning. Now that I think about it, that would be pretty good experience. I'd much rather have the first unanticipated incident occur at 25' under close supervision than at 60' with a buddy who has 10 dives.

FWIW.

 

[do it easy]

This echoes what I said in the other thread. A student leaving o/w, who is now given permission to go and dive on his/her own, should be confident enough to deal with OOA, etc at depth under stress. I don't think having my air turned off when I'm ready for it in a shallow depth with absolutely no other stressful factors is adequate preperation for OOA in 50 feet of water.

Having my air flow stop at random is still much more relaxed than the situation described above (50 ft w/ possible current), but it goes a lot further towards preparing me for it.

When I'm training to participate in an activity where my life is on the line, I want the most realistic training possible.

I think that the student should also be taught to realize their limitations will change over time. Just because they get their OW cert doesn't mean they should plunge straight down to 130' until they hit the no-stop limit. Just becuase you have the cert doesn't mean that you have to put your life on the line. I think of the cert as a license to learn, and the student should understand their limitations and work to expand their experiences to go beyond their limitations- much like TSandM posted.

I think that the basics taught in OW will get the student back alive, however, a more experience diver won't do this, and simply shortcut to the solution. Examples-

OOA- a new diver will share air. an experienced diver doesn't run out of air because of good gas management.
lost weight belt- a new diver should not be past the no-stop limits, so as long as they remember to breathe continously, they'll probably survive. I know there are a lot of if's, but what ever happened to not diving past your training and experience? When the weight belt starts to slip, the experienced diver will simply readjust it. hopefully, the same diver will realize that the belt/buckle is failing before this happens.
lost reg- the new diver will do the sweep/recovery/or reg switch. again, the experienced diver will know where the backup is.

If your mask is a bit flooded, do you do a controlled flood, take it off, put it back on, look up and clear it, or do you just reflexively clear it?

I'm not saying you're an inexperienced diver. I do think that you are looking for more rigourous training, which is a good thing. My point is that it doesn't have to be boot camp for everyone. At the risk of losing credibility- a good diver is always learning.

There's nothing underwater worth dying for.