What makes someone an "Advanced Scuba Diver"?

[Centrals]

So there is different name for the same book!!! Mine call "Raising the dead".It was a very sad ending to a very courageous person. Diving to 270m and performed such a complicated task.Having met him and the late John Benette all those yrs ago, there is no way that I can call myself as advanced diver.Diving is for fun.

 

[marcopalla]

I think there's a simple answer:

you are advanced diver when you get the Advanced certification (or equivalent).
in the same way an "advanced dive" is a dive in witch is requested Advanced cert.

other way, advanced in the meaning of "expert" doesn't mean anything,
advanced in the meaning of "difficult" too.

advanced in the comparison of what?

we can talk about what does expert mean, but is relative to the type of diving and other things.
ex: you are a course director in honduras but you never have done an under ice dive...

my 0.2$
;-)

 

[boulderjohn]

So there is different name for the same book!!! Mine call "Raising the death".

Ooops! I read it in Kindle on my tablet, so it opened to my last page read every time I turned it on. I never saw the title after purchasing it, and I misremembered.

 

[boulderjohn]

Another interesting point related to the definition of advanced was really a key part of the the book Deep Descent, about diving the Andrea Doria. There was a brief period of time in which one of the two main charter boats taking divers there had a rash of deaths, and some people accused its captain of taking unqualified divers to the wreck. This raised the familiar debate about the role of a dive boat captain/operator in taking divers to any dive site. Is the operator merely a "taxi driver' taking divers to a dive site, leaving the question of individual qualification up to the divers themselves, or does the operator have an obligation to ensure that everyone diving from the boat is qualified for the dive?

If it is the latter, then there really does need to be a way of judging appropriate ability. For example, the first death on the Andrea Doria was John Ormsby, a diver of unquestioned excellence (even fame) in warm water diving but whose inexperience on cold water wrecks led him to very serious errors that brought on his death.

 

[Brendon]

The name of this specific training level has been a topic of controversy within the diving community for many years. The crux of this debate is in the interpretation of the word 'Advanced' in its title, and what is the proper application or use of this adjective.

One school of thought on the matter defends the use of the word Advanced, explaining that it is describing the training accurately as being more comprehensive (i.e. more advanced) than the basic entry level training.

The opposing school of thought is that the use of the word 'Advanced' is essentially deceptive marketing, as graduates of the class very commonly then refer to themselves as "Advanced Divers". However, the training standards are not sufficient to raise a recreational diver (particularly the novice diver to whom the class is frequently marketed) to traditional expectations of holistic dive mastery, including the military definition.This is relevant because in the USA, civilian dive training and standards essentially originated from the US Navy, and the diving community continues to equate 'advanced' with 'expert'. As such, while it is agreed that the training is indeed more than basic, it is insufficient to create an Advanced (i.e. Expert) Diver. Specifically with regard to the PADI 'Advanced' certification standard, a 2006 coroner's court in the United Kingdom heard expert evidence to the effect that "I do not believe that someone with eight dives should be classified as an advanced diver. It is madness."

Another factor that relates to this controversy is NAUI's name changes from "Open Water II" to "Advanced Scuba Diver." This change was reportedly intended to address customer confusion as to the comparative rigors of training required to earn specific certifications. However, it initially caused some confusion within the diving community.

^{Straight from wiki...}

 

[Thalassamania]

The name of this specific training level has been a topic of controversy within the diving community for many years. The crux of this debate is in the interpretation of the word 'Advanced' in its title, and what is the proper application or use of this adjective.

One school of thought on the matter defends the use of the word Advanced, explaining that it is describing the training accurately as being more comprehensive (i.e. more advanced) than the basic entry level training.

Rather a disingenuous and sophist approach favored by those who created the problem.

The opposing school of thought is that the use of the word 'Advanced' is essentially deceptive marketing, as graduates of the class very commonly then refer to themselves as "Advanced Divers". However, the training standards are not sufficient to raise a recreational diver (particularly the novice diver to whom the class is frequently marketed) to traditional expectations of holistic dive mastery, including the military definition.

That (essentially deceptive marketing) was why it was done. The military definition, at least in the US, is virtually unknown, so I'd say it played no part. The critical issue was that other agencies all had "Advanced Diver" courses, and no-book-work, dive only, intermediate classes called Sport Diver, or Open Water II, or Silver Diver or some such. But one agency then chose to create their "Advanced Diver" course and equlibrate it in terms of requirements to everyone else's intermediate course.

This is relevant because in the USA, civilian dive training and standards essentially originated from the US Navy, and the diving community continues to equate 'advanced' with 'expert'. As such, while it is agreed that the training is indeed more than basic, it is insufficient to create an Advanced (i.e. Expert) Diver.

It is exceedingly well documented that the use of open circuit scuba in the US began at Scripps Institution of Oceanography and was picked up by the US Navy from there. As far as recreational diving is concerned, the knowledge was transferred from Scripps to LA County and then on to YMCA and later NAUI.

Specifically with regard to the PADI 'Advanced' certification standard, a 2006 coroner's court in the United Kingdom heard expert evidence to the effect that "I do not believe that someone with eight dives should be classified as an advanced diver. It is madness."

Quite true.

Another factor that relates to this controversy is NAUI's name changes from "Open Water II" to "Advanced Scuba Diver." This change was reportedly intended to address customer confusion as to the comparative rigors of training required to earn specific certifications. However, it initially caused some confusion within the diving community.

Also true, but deceptive.

NAUI's program was a 38 hr. OW I, followed by a six dive OW II, followed by Advanced Diver. Another agency that had a similar sequence eliminated its upper level course and replaced the title on its middle course with "Advanced Open Water Diver," to gain a competitive advantage. Some time after that NAUI followed suit, in what I feel was a truly chicken-$hit, clutching at straws, move.

^{Straight from wiki...}

Well, glory be, Wiki is wrong. After I'm done here, I'll go fix it ... that's what I love about wiki.

 

[Brendon]

The military definition, at least in the US, is virtually unknown, so I'd say it played no part.......It is exceedingly well documented that the use of open circuit scuba in the US began at Scripps Institution of Oceanography and was picked up by the US Navy from there. As far as recreational diving is concerned, the knowledge was transferred from Scripps to LA County and then on to YMCA and later NAUI.

IMO, having been an Army Combat diver and having trained with Navy divers on several occasions.The Military title of Master Diver would fit the defintion in most cases. Sure the Navy picked up scuba after the fact... Whos tables did they use to train on though? They were in the diving game long before NAUI or Scripps (If im thinking the same one- Institute of Oceanography???). Granted they were surface supply diving... Just because its Wiki dont make it right, I thought there was some interesting points made thats why posted it. Glad to get your point of view on their opinion...LOL. Please do fix it.

 

[Thalassamania]

No doubt the Navy was underwater first, with hard hat and SCUBA (pure oxygen rebreathers). It was open circuit that came from Scripps, and in fact, caused quite a fuss at Pt. Magoo because it did not have the depth restrictions that the oxygen sets did.

As Jim Stewart tells it: "Well, a lot, because a lot of the projects were funded by ONR. I can't give you the specifics, but ONR made a major contribution at that time to what we were doing. Early on, there were only two groups of us diving, ourselves and the underwater demolition, in its original configuration, were surface swimmers. They were essentially snorklers. And then Doug Fayne's group, called submarine operations, sub ops, were the people who used aqualungs and ultimately rebreathers, and that kind of group ultimately became the SEALs. Well, there were only two groups of us diving, us and them, so we did a lot of things in common."

 

[Centrals]

Ooops! I read it in Kindle on my tablet, so it opened to my last page read every time I turned it on. I never saw the title after purchasing it, and I misremembered.

The correct name is "Raising the Dead". Sorry for the mistake.
As far as I know that book does exist in another disguise(Diving into darkness).

 

[Griddable]

I'm just a basic diver with a keen interest and an "Advanced" certificate, but I thought I'd just offer these thoughts:

"Advanced" seems such a vague term that merely implies a level of competency beyond the similarly vague "Beginner/Basic" and "Intermediate" levels, or even . Why not break the loose descriptive terms into sets of U/W skills and quantify them with stratified levels, so we can more quickly and accurately convey exactly what amount (and kind) of training we've successfully completed?

I don't know enough (or have the time) to work out a full-on chart of how I'd expect this to work, but just to illustrate the idea, I'd draw parallels with the belt system in martial arts, or the achievement badge systems of the Boyscouts or online computer games. Admittedly, these are marketing schemes that exploit human psychology, but they can also be used to indicate a particular level of competency in regards to this or that skill.

It seems that part of the issue is that "Advanced" is such a general term, when so many divers opt to specialize once they've achieved competency in the basics. We all dive for our own reasons, and to call a recreational diver with 2000 shallow dives and a professional or cave diver with 2000 dives both "advanced" is as useless as calling them "experienced." I would just as soon see the term done away with, even if it means kicking me back to the "beginner" crowd