What should a DM do in this situation?

[String]

Thats 100% the diver in the waters fault. He's supposedly qualified. He's responsible for his own safety. Failing to check his own air and know when to call it breaks the first rule of open water diving. I dont trust anyone else to tell me i do or dont have enough air for a task - thats suicidal.

I see no problem changing underwater, you can communicate air, can communicate you want to call it and so on. Even if someone makes a mistake you can sort it out.

The incident you mentioned wouldnt have happened if the diver himself took some responsibility for his own diving.

 

[Diver0001]

Thats 100% the diver in the waters fault. He's supposedly qualified. He's responsible for his own safety. Failing to check his own air and know when to call it breaks the first rule of open water diving. I dont trust anyone else to tell me i do or dont have enough air for a task - thats suicidal.

I agree but in practice there are some divers out there who will do whatever you tell them to do, regardless of how stupid. I think as a conscientious DM you need to accept that as a fact even though on paper it should never happen.

<snip>

The incident you mentioned wouldnt have happened if the diver himself took some responsibility for his own diving.

Absolutly correct, which is proof positive that not every diver takes responsibility for his own diving.

BTW, I should say this happened to someone I know, not to me personally. I don't know if that was clear from my previous post.

R..

 

[String]

Nope i got the impression it wasnt you but my comment still stands.

If you are new/inexperienced or unsure then TELL the guide and then i agree the responsibility is on them to check your safety (and their call whether you dive or not).

If you dont do that you have to assume divers are qualified, know what theyre doing and know their limits - in short they take responsibility for themselves underwater.

If the above were exercised i cant see there being a problem. All that needs to be defined is is this a dive for qualified divers, inexperienced divers or not? Once thats ironed out i cant see a problem chopping and changing underwater if needed.

 

[Canucklehead]

A lot of talk in this thread about switching buddies mid-dive, but unless everyone participated together in the pre-dive discussion regarding an agreed upon dive profile, hand signals, weight belt dump mechanism check, etc. aren't you asking for a lot of potential trouble?

I dive with my son most of the time lately, and since he's still in the air hog stage (less than 15 dives), when his air is done, we're both done. I'm not passing him off to anyone else. Special situation maybe, but shouldn't we be treating all of our buddies the same way?

 

[String]

Not in typically tropical conditions. Unless someone has some seriously odd kit its pretty easy to get a feel for it underwater and swap around. Obviously im talking good vis/no current diving here. In low visibility situations you shouldnt be diving as a group anyway.

Hand signals would be covered in a surface brief anyway as would profile etc, all that changes is the buddy, minor kit and thats it.

Chopping and changing competent divers should matter at all. Obviously for deep dives involving a fair bit of deco etc you wouldnt do it. For 20-25m reef dives where NDL isnt approached i cant see an issue

 

[scubadoguk]

plan the dive .. dive the plan

BUT the world has screwed that one up and as such the DM would be held to a responsible party in the states as he was a leader and no matter who is first down to 500 psi or what ever cut off time agreed before hand he has a job to bring that diver to safety I:E to the surface and back on board or the shore
Fine words but the real world is that unhappy customers don't come back to dive if there unhappiness is from finishing a dive with plenty of air because of some air hog.
Unlike some scuba divers who have really good air consumption MOST divers on a boat will be running out sooner rather than later and cutting someones dive short but changing buddies UW is a see above situation, plan the dive dive the plan.
He, The D/M should have come up but the job says he has to stay ? the diver should not be on his own at any point but I wonder what would have happened if the diver had got hurt the D/M insurance is null and void his employer would be a running speck in the distance in most case's.
In a US dive case the dive should have been called and all back to the boat.
And String the UK is fast getting to the point where anyone who is in charge has a degree of legal responsibility so changing buddies or sending a diver up is not happening in schools BSAC or PADI, if it is they will be held at fault.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Honestly I don't see a problem with the dive leader sending you up to the surface. I have dove with several outfits that will send people up towards the boat by themselves so the rest of the group can continue. In fact I appreciate outfits that won't cut my dive short because someone else has a poor sac rate.

 

[Diver0001]

Honestly I don't see a problem with the dive leader sending you up to the surface. I have dove with several outfits that will send people up towards the boat by themselves so the rest of the group can continue. In fact I appreciate outfits that won't cut my dive short because someone else has a poor sac rate.

In my opinion this is unnacceptable. *You* might like it because you don't have to exit when your buddy does but your buddy has essentially been sent off solo and low on air.

Bad mojo on that.

A couple other points:

scubadoguk, I don't think liability exposure is limited to the DM. The buddy is also at risk as was the buddy who allowed to get himself swapped out and the operator of the boat, dive school etc. etc. Aside from that I wouldn't suggest DM's make these decisions with liability foremost in their thoughts. Rather from need to keep control in order to maximize fun and minimize problems.

String, I totally agree with you in principle but there is a disconnect between the theory of who is responsible for what and the practice of keeping everyone safe. That's where we don't see eye-to-eye I think.

R..

 

[MikeFerrara]

Honestly I don't see a problem with the dive leader sending you up to the surface. I have dove with several outfits that will send people up towards the boat by themselves so the rest of the group can continue. In fact I appreciate outfits that won't cut my dive short because someone else has a poor sac rate.

The problem with sending a diver up alone is that the descent and the ascent are two of the most likely times during a dive to have a problem as is any other dynamic portion of the dive.

No one should "cut your dive short". You plan how the dive will be conducted which includes setting time and gas limits and you dive it that way. If the DM has a buddy he should stay with the buddy. Otherwise he isn't a buddy is he? If you aren't able to dive without a DM then you should go up too.

 

[String]

Yes the UK is becoming "americanised" with the "Must sue SOMEONE" mentality which is something i absolutely hate. Everyone is always looking for someone to blame and never prepared to accept it was THEM that screwed up.

Its not a massive issue here in the context above though as most dives are as independent pairs - conditions in particulary low vis means you operate as a pair and nothing more so the group issue tends not to arise.

In the situation mentioned above im not advocating changing pairs all the time and constantly to juggle air - i was thinking more of 1 low fill or heavy breather meaning theyd be 20 mins shorter than everyone else on average (which is what happened in my one case, she had a 150bar fill, the rest of us 190). The reasoning being not everyone is hampered by a low fill or whatever.

---
Al Mialkovsky:- Agree totally.

---

Diver0001:-

"In my opinion this is unnacceptable. *You* might like it because you don't have to exit when your buddy does but your buddy has essentially been sent off solo and low on air.

Bad mojo on that."

That i disagree with, if pairs are changed AND/OR theres a group there you arent solo in my view - there are plenty of air sources, knives and so on should it be needed.

We dont agree - thats fair enough. No problem with that. Id be happy if they did swap me around or others to avoid a situation above thats all and i still think the be all and end all is a divers responsibility. If they dont know themselves that air is low or such in my view they shouldnt be diving without further training.
Im not advocating solo diving here - i simply dont see it as being "solo" just because buddy pairs have changed or youre in a group.