What's the best tape to use ?

[PerroneFord]

Just a point on Dr. Bill's comment. He's absolutely right that some manufacturers use a dry lubricant, whereas others (like Sony) use a wet lubricant. Mix them and you get gunk on the heads and a crappy picture.

Just a small comment concerning mini-DV. This is already a compressed format as uncompressed DV is a much broader stream. I am not sure if this camera is using Mpeg-2 or Mpeg-4 for HD. Frankly, I don't care for either as they are both lossy, and can make editing a huge chore on some editors.

Enjoy your camera!

 

[drbill]

Just a small comment concerning mini-DV. This is already a compressed format as uncompressed DV is a much broader stream. I am not sure if this camera is using Mpeg-2 or Mpeg-4 for HD. Frankly, I don't care for either as they are both lossy, and can make editing a huge chore on some editors.

Enjoy your camera!

Hi Perrone Ford!

My understanding is that miniDV is not stored in a compressed format, but HDV is (using MPEG-2, AVHCD or other compression algorithms). I agree that these are lossy and multiple decompressions/recompressions can result in much poorer image quality. My first video editor (a Casablanca) used MPEG-2 and I could see the loss in just one cycle. The fact that HDV uses these compression algorithms greatly concerns me as the advantage of the higher resolution of HDV is going to be compromised IF one does a lot of editing and archiving of the edited (vs raw) footage. Most of us do that.

 

[PerroneFord]

Trust me (or look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV) miniDV is a compressed format. It's clean because it is intraframe compression and does not use neighboring frames to predict motion, but it's compressed. HDV "can" look quite clean. The deal is, when you dump it to some editors, they store it in a format that can be cleanly edited, which is hard to do with the mpeg formats since mpeg uses predictive frames and delta frames. Some editors are able to work with the native file format and don't require the conversion process.

Once you get the video to your computer via firewire, you can save it in a non-lossy format which will allow you to edit and archive it at full resolution. Quite frankly, I've steered clear of these issues and I'd rather shoot HD with a different format. Even with it's limitations, the Panny HVX would be my first choice if I wanted to do it for a reasonable cost.

 

[Mountain Dog]

Just a point on Dr. Bill's comment. He's absolutely right that some manufacturers use a dry lubricant, whereas others (like Sony) use a wet lubricant. Mix them and you get gunk on the heads and a crappy picture.

quote]

Sorry guys, but this is not true. I own and operate three professional editing rooms with 8 tape machines of various formats. In more than 25 years of working with tens of thousands of videotapes I have never had tape cassette lubricant get on a head.

It is quite possible for dirt, dust, and moisture to adhere to the tape and foul a head...especially in a moisture rich enviroment like the ocean...but no cassette lubricant ever comes close to the tape itself. That would represent a catostrophic failure of the cassette.

Just to be sure, I also posed this question to a good friend of mine this morning. He is the Chief Engineer for ABC Television in Washington, DC. He has literally hundreds of tape machines in his department. He concurs that any of the major tape brands are fine and can be used interchangeably. They use Sony tapes, but only because Sony's bid for the pallets of tapes they use every week was the lowest.

Clean the heads on your camera regularly, and you will have no problems.

Mountain Dog

 

[PerroneFord]

Thanks for the professional opinion. Out of curiousity, are the tapes you are talking about BQ tapes or the standard stuff we get at Best Buy and Wal-Mart?

Not that I doubt what you are saying, but I'd seriously doubt the chief engineer at ABC TV is using miniDV for anything that would hit the air. At least I hope not.

 

[Mountain Dog]

Thanks for the professional opinion. Out of curiousity, are the tapes you are talking about BQ tapes or the standard stuff we get at Best Buy and Wal-Mart?

Not that I doubt what you are saying, but I'd seriously doubt the chief engineer at ABC TV is using miniDV for anything that would hit the air. At least I hope not.

No, mini-DV is not routinely used by broadcasters because as you correctly pointed out a few posts ago, it is compressed video. However, some video from outside sources does frequently come in on mini-DV, as well as many other formats from around the world, and must be assimilated into programs, such as Nightline and World News Tonight.

But in any case, the issue regarding tape brands doesn't change for different formats.

The brand name tape you buy at the local retailer meets the same standards as the stuff we buy from our suppliers...it's just more expensive. If you check my first post on this thread you'll see I suggest staying away from the cheap store brand tapes. That's because they may not require the same level of quality control as the major brands.

You don't have to buy large quantities to get good tape at decent prices, either. One of the places I like to buy from is Tape Resources ( www.taperesources.com ). You can buy lots as small as 5 tapes.

By the way, regarding the earlier discussion about compressed hi-def video: All HDV is compressed. HDTV (the professional, and very expensive level of hi-def) is not. That's why broadcasting is resisting the use of HDV. The biggest problem with compressed video is the RE-compression that occurs as it is transferred from aquisition format to editing to distribution format. Each compression does it's own damage to the original image and it's the compounding of this damage that causes problems.

Ultimately, every television signal sent to your house is now compressed at several points in the delivery process...it's the way of life in this digital age. That's why broadcasting tries very hard NOT to use compression any earlier in the process than possible. However, HDTV cameras cost pretty close to 100K right now, and the tape machines and editing gear to create uncompressed hi-def will cost another 250K. It's a tough reach, even for those of us who make our living with the stuff.

My best advise for now is, be happy with the compression your HDV camera uses. It's not the end of the world, and it is manageable. Just be aware that every time you move that material from one platform to another (tape to hard drive to dvd, for example) you are introducing additional compression. Keep your final video as generationally close to the source tapes as possible.

The video you are shooting with these little HDV cameras is in many ways, better than what we shot professionally just ten years ago.

Mountain Dog

 

[PerroneFord]

Mountain Dog,

Thanks for your comments. I do video professionally as well (not at your level) so I was curious about some of the things you were saying. I've been around the game since the days of U-Matics. And yes, miniDV isn't bad at ALL in comparison to some of that other stuff.

Here at the office I am mostly using miniDV, full size DV, and capturing the occasional DVCam tape.

[off topic: Are you a RED guy or anti-RED? And what part of WV are you from? I've got family up there]

 

[Mountain Dog]

PF-

I still have a U-matic deck! I do historical documentaries from time to time, and a lot of history is still sitting on those old tapes.

I also have a mini-DV in my arsenal of cameras - the Canon XL-1. I have used it for numerous documentaries - ranging from the wine cellars of France to the top of the Continental Glacier in Wyoming at 13,380 ft and it has never let me down. It is a versatile camera capable of doing things I can't do with a larger rig, and dollar for dollar is one of the best pieces of equipment I have ever bought.

I am investigating the HDV's myself right now and will be buying one as soon as I have any money left over from my new habit of diving. I'm looking at rigs in the 20K plus range. There are several in this price range that broadcasting is warming up to, so when Discovery, PBS, ABC and others put their stamp of approval on a given camera, that's the one I'll be getting.

As for your off-topic Q's, I'm near Harpers Ferry WV, and I'm a green guy.

Mountain Dog

 

[drbill]

MD... my source re: lubricants was a tech with one of the companies (Sony). Of course he also had motive to suggest not to use Panasonic tapes in my Sony cameras, but I think he was on the level.

You're right that diving and video slurp up anything left in one's budget... or one's credit limit!

 

[Mountain Dog]

MD... my source re: lubricants was a tech with one of the companies (Sony). Of course he also had motive to suggest not to use Panasonic tapes in my Sony cameras, but I think he was on the level.

You're right that diving and video slurp up anything left in one's budget... or one's credit limit!

Don't believe it. Any lubricant of any type that gets on the tape head is going to cause a clog. Those heads have to be totally free of even the most microscopic foreign substances to work correctly. Keeping the heads cleaned is far more important than the brand of tape you are using.

Mountain Dog