What's the best tape to use ?

[Empty V]

Believe me, I'm not knocking it. Mine is a DVX100 original, and was purchased new on the advice of a friend who'd shot with one for MTV and Food Network (as well as the Bachelorette). I've done a lot of work with mine, and have some toys for it like a new 6 hour battery and a new Firestore with the big drive to save capture time.

I covered a press conference with it a couple of weeks ago, and I have to admit I felt a bit envious standing next to the guys in the gallery with full size rigs!

I've got an original DVX100 as well. If you're in the market for some new batteries I have an ebay store that I buy from that has 5400mha batteries for $24.99/ea. I have 6 of them and they are outstanding. Congrats on the firestore drive, I'm about to buy one for an HVX setup I have. If you're into cool accessories let me know. I've got a bunch and am constantly buying more. Cranes, pro-tripods, follow focus(next purchase), shoulder mounting braces(spiderbrace.com) and lots of other useful toys.

I'd honestly be interested to see why you think a RED is not broadcast quality -- essentially 4K resolution either visually lossless wavelet compression or for the real freaks, RAW RAW output at 900Mbits/sec to a RAID array.

Also, I dont think RED has the concept of tapes, but realtime editing in Final Cut Studio 2, as well as quicktime plugins mean that editing should be really easy, especially due to the way I think the wavelet decompression works -- you can essentially very easily extract downscaled versions of the large footage without decompressing the whole thing.

Gotta read a little bit closer bro. I said it was not a broadcast camera, which it is not. As stated by PerroneFord, it is far beyond broadcast quality and way overkill. Downconverting is a long process and good luck finding a system where you can edit offline in realtime with a 4K image. FCP 6 cannot handle that, trust me. Do some research, the RED ONE camera utilizes tapeless acquisition only. Check out the brief description of the workflow here: http://www.red.com/workflow.shtml

Other ridiculously high end HD cameras that have this ability are the Grass Valley Viper, Arri D20 and the Panavision Genesis. One has to also remember that a 4K image doesn't mean that it's going to be an amazing picture. You can buy a cheap point & shoot camera that puts out a 10 megapixel image, but it will most likely look like junk. Resolution is only part of the story. There is a reason why these cameras go for the money they do. They could manufacture $15,000 4K bodies but they choose to go a different route, you get what you pay for.

Billy

 

[PerroneFord]

Man, this thread is awesome! Billy, you got one of those Zacuto setups? That thing looks slick! But I just can't dump money in this thing. I've been thinknig of buying a glidecam or something similar just for doing some basic handheld work. We'll see.

As for RED, yea, that bad boy wouldn't exactly slip into the standard edit bay! I was reading about the Genesis in American Cinematographer I think. Nice setup, but Panavision has to be looking over their shoulder at RED. Especially, for B-Unit work or small production. At 2k, RED could step all over CineAlta and Varicam. But those cams are well established (though REALLY costly).

You're dead on about the picture too. Still need light, and still need glass. Any idea on nice primes for the RED yet? I think I saw they had something nice for it. When Cooke get's in the game, things could step up quickly.

...I've got Milk Girls on the brain!

 

[Empty V]

Man, this thread is awesome! Billy, you got one of those Zacuto setups? That thing looks slick! But I just can't dump money in this thing. I've been thinknig of buying a glidecam or something similar just for doing some basic handheld work. We'll see.

As for RED, yea, that bad boy wouldn't exactly slip into the standard edit bay! I was reading about the Genesis in American Cinematographer I think. Nice setup, but Panavision has to be looking over their shoulder at RED. Especially, for B-Unit work or small production. At 2k, RED could step all over CineAlta and Varicam. But those cams are well established (though REALLY costly).

You're dead on about the picture too. Still need light, and still need glass. Any idea on nice primes for the RED yet? I think I saw they had something nice for it. When Cooke get's in the game, things could step up quickly.

...I've got Milk Girls on the brain!

Thanks for the affirmation. Dude that Zacuto setup is pretty insane. I wish I could justify dropping that much into a DVX myself, but can't. So many more things to buy, like a couch. Hahaha! The red will most likely never compete with the Genesis because the world of cinematography is still transitioning to HD, and I use the word transitioning loosely.

Just to give you an idea, for a Panavision 35mm Package the walk in customer will pay, depending on lens choice, between $7,500-$8,500 a week for a rental. That is a top of the line platinum setup. The Genesis I believe STARTS at $13K/week. That's almost as much as the body for the RED to buy! You also have to remember that Panavision manufactures 99% of their parts in California. I've been lucky enough to have taken a tour of the facilities. It's amazing to see how huge the pieces of solid core aluminum are before they are turned into a lens. They even make the circuit boards there, insane!

I've known a few people with glide cams and they put them in the closet after a few shoots with them. You should check these guys out: www.promax.com I've got one of these: http://www2.promax.com/Products/Cranes

It's a pretty amazing tool that really pumps up production value for a small price. They're kind of local to me and treat me pretty well, solid company. They have a low cost glide cam called the SteadyTracker which works pretty well. I love these toys. I also found a company that manufactures monitors for car headrests and ordered a 5" LCD from them for $100, I'm planning on making a frame for it, battery system and a hotshoe mount. Should be pretty cool.

edit
I'm too lazy to check if i posted this earlier but take a look. Another cheap awesome tool that I use all the time. http://www.spiderbrace.com/

Billy

 

[limeyx]

...
Gotta read a little bit closer bro. I said it was not a broadcast camera, which it is not. As stated by PerroneFord, it is far beyond broadcast quality and way overkill. Downconverting is a long process and good luck finding a system where you can edit offline in realtime with a 4K image. FCP 6 cannot handle that, trust me. Do some research, the RED ONE camera utilizes tapeless acquisition only. Check out the brief description of the workflow here: http://www.red.com/workflow.shtml

Other ridiculously high end HD cameras that have this ability are the Grass Valley Viper, Arri D20 and the Panavision Genesis. One has to also remember that a 4K image doesn't mean that it's going to be an amazing picture. You can buy a cheap point & shoot camera that puts out a 10 megapixel image, but it will most likely look like junk. Resolution is only part of the story. There is a reason why these cameras go for the money they do. They could manufacture $15,000 4K bodies but they choose to go a different route, you get what you pay for.

Billy

Maybe you should tell the RED guys then who have been editing 4K footage in Final Cut Pro on Macbook laptops

From what I understand, the RAW can just be pulled into FCP and edited either into the new FCP codec or directly on the timeline by pulling in a 1K or a 2K preview.

From what I have heard from people who saw the demo footage, 4K REDCODE is essentially film quality. Obviously you'd need good lenses though. I dont think the low cost of the body indicates low quality --just a different paradigm than most others.

Will definitely be interesting to see what comes out of it. Obviously missing are the really in-depth tests where someone deliberately goes all out to try to push the compression etc.

 

[Hemlon]

MD... my source re: lubricants was a tech with one of the companies (Sony). Of course he also had motive to suggest not to use Panasonic tapes in my Sony cameras, but I think he was on the level.

You're right that diving and video slurp up anything left in one's budget... or one's credit limit!

Bill,

I have heard this also. Like you, it was from a credible source.

Donna.


PS- I'm still planning to dive in your neck of the woods eventually. I really appreciate the info you post occasionally about local conditions.

 

[Hemlon]

Mountain Dog,

You have a new PM!

 

[Empty V]

Maybe you should tell the RED guys then who have been editing 4K footage in Final Cut Pro on Macbook laptops

From what I understand, the RAW can just be pulled into FCP and edited either into the new FCP codec or directly on the timeline by pulling in a 1K or a 2K preview.

From what I have heard from people who saw the demo footage, 4K REDCODE is essentially film quality. Obviously you'd need good lenses though. I dont think the low cost of the body indicates low quality --just a different paradigm than most others.

Will definitely be interesting to see what comes out of it. Obviously missing are the really in-depth tests where someone deliberately goes all out to try to push the compression etc.

Then it would not be editing uncompressed, you're probably looking at a 4:1 ratio max size.

The idea of something being "film quality" is a very touchy subject. If you look at the resolution of film there are around 20 million "quality" pixels in a top-quality 35mm shot. That's a shot with a tripod, mirror-up, with a top-rate lens and the finest-grained film, in decent light.(taken from Brad Templeton's page) Remember with film the lens really affects resolution just as much as the film, or with HD the image sensor. I saw a side by side comparison between the Panavision Platinum and the Genesis. Only a super trained eye could really see a difference. I don't have that eye. What I did see was that the Genesis' DoF was a lot deeper which to me gave it a more digitally processed look.

Billy

 

[limeyx]

Then it would not be editing uncompressed, you're probably looking at a 4:1 ratio max size.


Billy

It is "Proxy" editing -- where a lower quality 1K say resolution is shown onscreen but once you render the final output, it comes directly from the 4K compressed stream --
the 1K "Proxy" is dynamically extracted from the 4K compressed file. No "transcoding" required. Just plug in & go.

 

[Empty V]

It is "Proxy" editing -- where a lower quality 1K say resolution is shown onscreen but once you render the final output, it comes directly from the 4K compressed stream --
the 1K "Proxy" is dynamically extracted from the 4K compressed file. No "transcoding" required. Just plug in & go.

I'm a little confused. So the 4K image comes out of the camera as compressed? That doesn't sound logical to me. From what you're saying it sounds like there is a downconversion within FCP so you can edit offline and then online back from the original 4K uncompressed files. Unless some new crazy format is released, transcoding is proprietary to quicktime formats and you're right about not needing to do it because it would end up being a downconversion and that would defeat the point of using the camera.
Transcoding Formats:
* MPEG-1/2
* MPEG-4(-part 3) (also DivX and XviD variants)
* Quicktime / MPEG-PS (dvd) (decode only)
* MPEG-1-layer-1/2/3 audio
* AC3 audio

So regardless you cannot edit uncompressed 4K footage in FCP.

Billy