Whats wrong with DIR

[Northeastwrecks]

As a preliminary matter, Mr. Painter should try taking a GUE course for himself so that he can offer first hand opinions of what could be changed. Since that will never happen:

I'm uniformly and extremely happy with the quality of the courses that I've taken from GUE. My GUE instructor is also a friend with whom I've been diving and who is available to answer questions.

I also find that their training has made my dives far more enjoyable and that I'm able to do more aggresive dives with my team mates than I would have attempt with other divers. This is due to the fact that (1) we practice together; (2) we know that each of us will be there for the others; and (3) we are equipped to handle problems. For example, there are no lost buddy problems because we don't let it happen.

I also am glad that GUE hasn't dumbed itself down to satisfy the masses or the whining internet critics compensate for a lack of knowledge by starting pointless threads.

However, GUE isn't perfect. My biggest criticism is that some of the goals of a particular exercise are not entirely clear until after the exercise is complete. In addition, sometimes it is not entirely clear what the most important goals of an exercise are.

This makes it more difficult to execute the exercises.

OTOH, teaching in this manner allows you to determine, for yourself, why particular reactions, plans, equipment configurations, etc..., support the course goals. Coming to the realization yourself helps the material stick.

But it sure is frustrating until you get it right.

 

[Don Burke]

chrpai once bubbled... So I'm still waiting to hear from a DIR advocate what they think could be improved without all the chatter from the otherside please.

If someone comes up with a better way to do something, it will end up being the DIR way in very short order, so improvements are getting pretty hard to come by.

Recently, there have been changes in lights, some changes in how gas planning is done, and the change of DIR-F to a certification course (which is really a GUE change).

There have been some near misses. Nature's wing fins fell a bit short. Ankle weights came and went.

Recommended Equivalent Narcotic Depths have changed over the years.

If something has merit, it will probably be adopted pretty quickly, and there is considerably more flex in the system than most opponents realize, so gripes are pretty rare among DIR divers.

 

[FreeFloat]

Anyone can say they're a good diver -

but it's how you actually dive, and moreover how you dive WITH OTHERS that makes the difference.

I would like to go along on a dive with DIR'rs - just to see how the diving styles differ.

When I dive, I do my best to be the kind of buddy I want my buddy to be. While having fun and considering safety, of course. Other than that, I'm flexible - but don't preach to me about why "your way" is better than "my way" - simply lead by example, and I will make up my own mind that "my way" or "your way" is more efficient, safe, or fun.

And considering that I'm not done with developing a personal "diving style" yet, I'm still soaking things up like a sponge.....

 

[Don Burke]

chrpai once bubbled... So far the closest thing I've heard (paraphrasing) is that the message could be clearer. ( IE its not about the gear.) but that is as much as an audience problem as a presentation problem. ( Since it does take 2 to communicate.)

We recently had a thread that sank to a discussion of DIR divers "controlling" other DIR divers. Controlling an audience that doesn't want to listen in the first place would seem to be even farther out of reach.

 

[detroit diver]

FreeFloat once bubbled...
Anyone can say they're a good diver -

but it's how you actually dive, and moreover how you dive WITH OTHERS that makes the difference.

I would like to go along on a dive with DIR'rs - just to see how the diving styles differ.

When I dive, I do my best to be the kind of buddy I want my buddy to be. While having fun and considering safety, of course. Other than that, I'm flexible - but don't preach to me about why "your way" is better than "my way" - simply lead by example, and I will make up my own mind that "my way" or "your way" is more efficient, safe, or fun.

And considering that I'm not done with developing a personal "diving style" yet, I'm still soaking things up like a sponge.....

There is a DIR shop in Kingston owned by Dan Mckay. You should check into that shop and maybe dive with some of the guys/gals there. Great wreck diving, and nice peope too. Let me know if you want the name of the store.

 

[MASS-Diver]

I'd lilke to see them develop a Wreck course along the lines of their current Cave program (Dir-f, cave 1, cave 2, cave 3). Although these guys are famous becuase their organizations was founded by one of the greates cave divers ever, I'd love to see a formal wreck that teaches penetration specific to wrecks.

 

[detroit diver]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...
I'd lilke to see them develop a Wreck course along the lines of their current Cave program (Dir-f, cave 1, cave 2, cave 3). Although these guys are famous becuase their organizations was founded by one of the greates cave divers ever, I'd love to see a formal wreck that teaches penetration specific to wrecks.

Although I've never taken the Cave 1 class, I can't imagine how a wreck class would be much different from a cave class. Overhead, line tie-offs, line running, lost line drills, etc.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Don Burke once bubbled...
If someone comes up with a better way to do something, it will end up being the DIR way in very short order, so improvements are getting pretty hard to come by.

Recently, there have been changes in lights, some changes in how gas planning is done, and the change of DIR-F to a certification course (which is really a GUE change).

There have been some near misses. Nature's wing fins fell a bit short. Ankle weights came and went.

Recommended Equivalent Narcotic Depths have changed over the years.

If something has merit, it will probably be adopted pretty quickly, and there is considerably more flex in the system than most opponents realize, so gripes are pretty rare among DIR divers.

I'm not sure I totally agree with this. Techniques currently used in sumps, work the best in sumps. DIR hasen't addressed this environment at all as far as I know and you don't see many DIR divers (read as any) in Kentucky caves or for that matter some of the systems dived by the CDG.

This is just one example but I'm sure there are others.
This isn't meant as a slam at all just a fact.

 

[Don Burke]

MikeFerrara once bubbled... I'm not sure I totally agree with this. Techniques currently used in sumps, work the best in sumps. DIR hasen't addressed this environment at all as far as I know and you don't see many DIR divers (read as any) in Kentucky caves or for that matter some of the systems dived by the CDG.

This is just one example but I'm sure there are others.
This isn't meant as a slam at all just a fact.

The DIR guys in Europe seem to do a lot of sumps. There is a site out of The Netherlands with quite a bit on it. That might be a good source for information.

http://www.frogkick.nl/

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver once bubbled...


Although I've never taken the Cave 1 class, I can't imagine how a wreck class would be much different from a cave class. Overhead, line tie-offs, line running, lost line drills, etc.

While line techniques are similar, there are some major differences between a technical dive in OW, especially cold OW, than a technical dive in a cave. Of course outside the wreck is OW. I would expect Cave 1, 2 and 3 to address some of these differences.

Wrecks and caves have the general hazards in common. Those being dark, water and the overhead environment. However the specific hazards are almost totally different. In years past, the would be wreck diver didn't have any options other than cave training and it was up to the diver to make the transition. Lots of divers have taken cave training to prepare for wrecks including if I'm not mistaken GI. There just wasn't anything else around. Now days there is wreck specific training available. I don't have any first hand experience with those course offerings so I can't comment further on them.

I will say this, though, if wrecks are what you want to dive, get at least some of your training from an instructor who dives wrecks. IMO, a great Florida cave instructor could be a lousy Great Lakes wreck instructor. I just did a Advanced Trimix class with a guy who is training director for Deep Midwest (Great Lakes wrecks) and is a member of the OCDA (Missouri caves). Great Lakes wrecks and Missouri caves are where I spend most of my time and I think he's privy to techniques that the average Florida cave instructor isn't prepared to teach (DIR or otherwise). Experience in environment one isn't the same as experience in the other even if the general philosophy crosses over well and doesn't qualify you to teach the other.