DIR- GUE Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does?

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I wont argue with bringing tables etc but to use brain+watch+depth gauge+tables instead of computers seems a bit like adding extra failure points.
Well, the computer doesn’t negate the use of your brain.

Tables already exist because you’re planning your dive beforehand and know what you’re going to do before you hit the water.

Depth gauge is just basic scuba stuff. So is a timing device. Your computer just happens to house both of those.
 
I wont argue with bringing tables etc but to use brain+watch+depth gauge+tables instead of computers seems a bit like adding extra failure points.
Not really. Depth gauge and watch goes together usually. The brain is always part of the chain. You are just adding one piece, the tables, which are way more reliable than computers (they can't fail).

But, really, we just bring the computer :)

You omitted bringing a brain and concentrating.

Thus one does need a computer.


Klang.... Oh, that's why you dive in teams. So you can compare your deco calculations and validate each other's progress.
Yes, that's it. And by the way, comparing our modified (or unmodified) déco plan when underwater is part of the course.
 
Gue moved from ratio deco and deco on the fly in 2010 (when I was introduced with dir/gue) to gue decoplanner (20/80) and nowadays also gue decoplanner (standard still 20 I believe as gf low), pragmatic deco (change the calculated plan into an easy plan to be done by head with wetnotes if your brains don't work anymore), and using a computer.
Pragmatic deco was already teached by iantd in 2011, then I learned it.

What I want to say:
Every dive agency, gue including changed opinions and things during the years. If you have done a gue course in 2010, only bottomtimer, ratio deco, etc, the nowadays courses are different. Maybe in all kind of ways, but it is different then when you did the course in 2010 for example.
I don't remember when I took tech 1. Maybe around the 2010 time frame. It was a few years after AG left GUE.

By the time I took tech 1, Decoplanner was used to determine what deco is required for a given profile. It just so happens that that if ran decoplanner for profiles around 140ft, 150ft, 160ft, 170ft, the numbers like close to a 1-1 ratio. Put a different way, ratio deco wasn't the planning tool. It was the pattern you would find if you used certain gasses for certain profiles.
 
Why is the advantage / benefit of being able to do easy rules of thumb calculations regarding deco here in a thread with the topic "Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does"?
Discussing this with someone who is only interested in his own opinion is like playing chess with a dove...
 
Why is the advantage / benefit of being able to do easy rules of thumb calculations regarding deco here in a thread with the topic "Why are non-GUE divers so interested in what GUE does"?
Discussing this with someone who is only interested in his own opinion is like playing chess with a dove...
Thanks. Glad you're so open to other techniques and methodologies.
 
I'm not sure what part you disagree with the tech1-v4.0 basically says not to use it as a primary means and includes procedures for using computers and deco planner as well

As far as knowing current depth, your SMB tells you that, and some might call me old school but there's a reason I always wear a dive watch.

Well this is a thread for the GUE curious thread, so I obviously haven't taken T1.

For me Ratio, would only be used if we had an entire team computer failure, and we deviated from the dive plan so much that the dive plan is useless. So it would be pretty far down the list, but I have considered the scenario you are talking about using knots in my SMB to estimate my depth. I have one knots for every ten feet on that (and I mean the number of knots at each depth, so I can easily tell). But the time is the hardest part, as three computers have failed (two on me, and at least one of my buddy). A fourth device probably isn't going to help.

But like I said, this wouldn't stop me from taking GUE classes, in fact my physical disability and figuring out how to deal with in doubles is stopping me. Mostly because I would rather spend my one diving day a week exploring caves than playing around in the basin at Ginnie. But I am hoping to move up to CC ones of these days, so I will more easily be able to make time to work on issues.
 
Well this is a thread for the GUE curious thread, so I obviously haven't taken T1.

For me Ratio, would only be used if we had an entire team computer failure, and we deviated from the dive plan so much that the dive plan is useless. So it would be pretty far down the list, but I have considered the scenario you are talking about using knots in my SMB to estimate my depth. I have one knots for every ten feet on that (and I mean the number of knots at each depth, so I can easily tell). But the time is the hardest part, as three computers have failed (two on me, and at least one of my buddy). A fourth device probably isn't going to help.

But like I said, this wouldn't stop me from taking GUE classes, in fact my physical disability and figuring out how to deal with in doubles is stopping me. Mostly because I would rather spend my one diving day a week exploring caves than playing around in the basin at Ginnie. But I am hoping to move up to CC ones of these days, so I will more easily be able to make time to work on issues.

I would put it this way - Even if you use a computer to tell you what your deco is, if you do a certain set of profiles enough times, you might actually know before you get in the water what your deco will be. If you did a dive to wreck last weekend at 150ft for 30 mins and your computer made you do 30 mins of deco and you are doing that same dive again this weekend, you would likely remember. If you do a subsequent dive to that wreck for 20 minutes, your computer will tell you how much deco for that profile. If you do the same dive for 35 minutes, you will have the data for that profile. If you note down the deco your dive computer spit out for each one of the profiles, you have the start of a table.

Alternatively, you can do some "what if" analysis using decoplanner or whatever deco software you use and write down your results in a table. In this way, you have the data for what deco you will need to do for various likely profiles before you even leave your house.

I haven't been in a GUE class in many moons so I don't know what they teach these days. But when I took tech 1, the name "ratio deco" never came up. What we did talk about is modeling different profiles and writing it down. We talked about patterns that seemed to emerge and how we could use the knowledge of those patterns.

This is not specifically aimed at you - just typing in one reply.
Finally, I want to address the notion that this somehow takes some super human skills to do technical diving that way. In my personal experience, that's hardly the case. The first dive plan I had out of tech 1 was 150ft (avg) for 20 mins. How do I know? Because instructors always tell you to take it easy right out of class. We went to 150ish ft, stayed there for a few minutes, then got progressively shallower and ended the dive around 140 ft. I don't know what the actual avg depth was but it was somewhere between 145-150ft. When the dive ended, we ascended towards the top of the pinnacle where we were probably at 100ish ft, shot a bag and then ascended to 70ft. From there, we switched to deco bottles and did 2s every 10ft until we got to 20ft, at which point, we did 5s.

There is absolutely nothing super human in this dive plan. I did it (average diver at best) and so did my dive buddy (barely any better or smarter than me). And every diver who ever took tech 1 did a very similar dive right out of class. While some of tech 1 graduates are really good / smart divers, the vast majority of us are just regular people. I suspect some people's aversion to this approach has more to do with the fact that they haven't actually experienced doing it this way and therefore haven't felt how simple it is.
 
I would put it this way - Even if you use a computer to tell you what your deco is, if you do a certain set of profiles enough times, you might actually know before you get in the water what your deco will be. If you did a dive to wreck last weekend at 150ft for 30 mins and your computer made you do 30 mins of deco and you are doing that same dive again this weekend, you would likely remember. If you do a subsequent dive to that wreck for 20 minutes, your computer will tell you how much deco for that profile. If you do the same dive for 35 minutes, you will have the data for that profile. If you note down the deco your dive computer spit out for each one of the profiles, you have the start of a table.
I haven't been in a GUE class in many moons so I don't know what they teach these days. But when I took tech 1, the name "ratio deco" never came up. What we did talk about is modeling different profiles and writing it down. We talked about patterns that seemed to emerge and how we could use the knowledge of those patterns.

My understanding is that Ratio is a more formalized method to those patterns that you notice that way. And I certainly notice those patterns, I can tell you about how much deco I am going to have in a dive just by looking at the average depth, and how much gas I am planning to bring with me.

There is absolutely nothing super human in this dive plan. I did it (average diver at best) and so did my dive buddy (barely any better or smarter than me). And every diver who ever took tech 1 did a very similar dive right out of class. While some of tech 1 graduates are really good / smart divers, the vast majority of us are just regular people. I suspect your aversion to this approach has more to do with the fact that you haven't actually experienced doing it this way and therefore haven't felt how simple it is.

I think you might misunderstand me. First I am not an OW tech diver, I do that occasionally but a vast majority of my diving is in caves. And I don't do it for the thrill, but because I enjoy what I see. So my dive plans are fairly conservative and involve work up dives. When I take DPV Cave later this year, you aren't going to see me slapping on two scooters and running out to Well Casing or Henkel (for non-cave divers these are major check box destinations far in their respective caves). I'll be using them to take me to the edge of the cave I know well, and then work my way up past there. I view deco the same way, and TBH I am a bit of a coward.

My dislike for Ratio is that I don't believe that I should be doing math like that underwater. And that it would take so many prior failures for me to even consider going down that path. And I question the value of having students learn a system with little utility. But I consider it a minor issue and more class related items that are retained even when their utility has become minimal, sort of like buddy breathing that is still in TDI deco classes.
 
I would put it this way - Even if you use a computer to tell you what your deco is, if you do a certain set of profiles enough times, you might actually know before you get in the water what your deco will be.
When I was shooting a fully manual medium format camera using a spot meter, I was shooting often enough that after doing a reading, I was telling my meter "yeah, that sounds about right." Some photographers would stop using a meter as they could "see" the exposure. I wouldn't recommend that for a deco schedule, but getting to the point of knowing what the computer will say before looking is an indication of knowing a dive profile quite well.
 
I think you might misunderstand me. First I am not an OW tech diver, I do that occasionally but a vast majority of my diving is in caves. And I don't do it for the thrill, but because I enjoy what I see. So my dive plans are fairly conservative and involve work up dives. When I take DPV Cave later this year, you aren't going to see me slapping on two scooters and running out to Well Casing or Henkel (for non-cave divers these are major check box destinations far in their respective caves). I'll be using them to take me to the edge of the cave I know well, and then work my way up past there. I view deco the same way, and TBH I am a bit of a coward.

My dislike for Ratio is that I don't believe that I should be doing math like that underwater. And that it would take so many prior failures for me to even consider going down that path. And I question the value of having students learn a system with little utility. But I consider it a minor issue and more class related items that are retained even when their utility has become minimal, sort of like buddy breathing that is still in TDI deco classes.

Yeah, that wasn't really directed at you. I think I read other people's posts and got lazy and included that bit in my reply to you.

My only point was, the math is done at home. If you dive the plan, you don't need to look at your dive computer to tell you when your first stop is and for how long. That got worked out at home. It is fair though to say that plans change. You did 10 minutes less than the plan because you tore a wrist seal. Or the vis was ****** so it wasn't worth it to stay longer. Or the average depth was shallower or deeper since there was a ripping current in the depth range you had planned but there was shelter slightly shallower or deeper. (This actually happened on my first tech dive). In this case, you do have to work out, how much shorter should my dive be to stay within the same deco given that my average depth was deeper. Or how much can I cut my deco short given that the profile was shallower than I planned.

But again, that's probably information better aimed at other people.
 
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