Why do computers rot the brain?

[AquaTec]

the original question was "why do computers rot your brain" so maybe I assumed that if you where not using a computer you would be using tables. ther refference was made to DIR. but I think that is irrelevent....well except they are the only ones teaching that computers should not be used.

I am just wondering what is the advantage of not using a computer.

"computers will rot your brain is a favourite quote of Uncle Pugs and as usual he side stepped the questions i had and then logged off. This is an old debate of ours and I love rehashing it.

The optimal solution is to learn how decompression actually works and throw the tables away. I don't use a computer and haven't carried tables with me for years. Just memorize a few simple rules of thumb and then you can apply them as needed to come up with an approximately correct ascent profile. The results are better in every way

I would love to hear more about this one. I beleive I have a good understanding of decompression and how it works, tell me more about the simple rules of thumb that will allow me to throw away my tables and computer

 

[MikeS]

Uncle Pug,

“We all learn from others and listening to those who truly are experts in their field is a wise move. It does not replace thinking but actually promotes thinking as we evaluate what they have to say and make our choices accordingly.”

Maybe I’m just in an ironic mood but I find your statement hilariously ironic. The “Lean from experts” links were to DIR founders expounding on the principles of DIR, with its self-proclaimed all or nothing philosophy. What if as you say, I evaluate what they have to say and decide that it’s only “smoke and mirrors.”? Can I still be DIR with my computer or must I accept all of the principles, and if so, where exactly does the thinking and evaluation come into the process if I must follow “the path?”

"Dive computers do not necessarily make more information available to you... in fact they obscure useful information and prominently display *NDL Time Remaining*."

Come on Uncle Pug, the computer can’t make you look at anything. If they can, I want to put some pop up adds on your PC, maybe I can sell you a bridge.

Does this mean that you’ve filled the serial number off the back of your SPG so you don’t actually think that you have 3AG45Z PSI left?

And I think that the amount of NDL Time Remaining is rather important and while I don’t think that it’s prudent to make a dive plan to follow NDL display it is a very good indication of whether things are on track.

I think your efforts at bashing computers would be better spent by accepting the inevitable, that dive computers are here to stay, and helping divers to use them responsibly. You’ve raised some very valid concerns about how computers can create problems through misuse. The solution is education, not hiding under the bed and pretending they don’t exist, but wait that wouldn’t be DIR would it?

Mike

P.S. Does this disagreement mean that I can’t be adopted and come to live on the Uncle Pug II?

 

[Big-t-2538]

I don not think OW students should be trained with a computer. One LDS in my area says their computers are the way to go....leave the tables in your "Course kit" I totally disagree with this for the simple fact that you are teaching students from day 1 how not to prepare themselves for an equipment problem. I think computers are an excellent tool to use for extension of bottom time, ascent rate alarms, planning, logging, etc. However, if you don't know how to dive tables, what do you do if your computer fails. I think computers should be introduced after an OW student has passed his class and obtained his OW cert. Computers are more of a luxury, not a diving necessity & I fear too many students have learned otherwise. Just my 2 cents

-TT

 

[Uncle Pug]

Aquatec: what you fail to realize is that most recreational divers think that while computers are fine for recreational divers... technical divers need to use tables. The discussion in this thread is not about technical diving... it is about recreational use of computers... introducing the use of computers for technical diving into this discussion can only confuse the issue. But hey... do whatever you want Doug.

nradov: thanks for pointing that out... and in my last post to Doug thought about it and then deleted it because I didn't want to go there in this thread. I hope that if Doug does decide to ask his *question* in the appropriate tech forum that you will respond. He (as well as a lot of others) thinks that it is either computers or tables.

Aquatec: Sorry to have logged off on you... I didn't know my continued presence was that important. No side stepping involved.... I just do not believe it serves the greater interest to introduce a whole new topic into the middle of this discussion. That being the technical use of computers.

MikeS: I don't think you have a good grasp of irony... but you seem to excel in hyperbole and obfuscation. Yes, I will still adopt you... pack your things and come on out... sigh.

Big-t-2538: Sorry I don't have any personal comments for you at the moment but didn't want to leave you out.... I agree with some of your sentiments and not with others... but wholeheartedly congratulate you on making a post appropriate to the thread and forum.

 

[DeWDiver]

If computers "rot your brain", lets look at the tables. Seems to me if you use tables then your just a slacker also. A "real" diver would do all the calculations by hand (no computer software, calculator, slide rule, etc.) based on another person's formulas.

Now, do you trust your own math skills this much. It has been proven to many a calculus student that the majority of math errors are in basic algebra not the "hard" calculus.

I bet even the DIR dieties use a computer to calculate there dives. In fact, don't they sell a program for this??

So, in some ways, everybody is using a computer! Just a thought.

 

[Scuba]

UP wrote:

I prefer to have Bottom Time and Depth prominently displayed. From these I can discern everything else I need to know

What's the matter, Uncle Pug, why do you insist on using these old style computational devices? Your brain must be rotting!

Time - depth: The force Luke, use the force.

Computers don't help me think, they just enhance my awareness when "the force" eludes me.

 

[-BlueHole-]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...



... and you begin to sink and your computer stops beeping... but how do you know how far and how fast you are descending.... your ears begin to get tight... do you equalize them?.... they are starting to hurt... do you equalize them? Do you add air to your BC? Your suit is squeezing you... do you add air to your suit?

I'm not that stupid if I hear a strange noise coming from the brainrotter I can also dump a little bit of air instead of emptyng the bc and the drysuit...
But i received the sense of what you where sayng, if u are trained and aware of the situation, you can solve easily
I'll practice, thx for the hint

 

[Soggy]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
computers do not help your thinking process... they circumvent it.

Or...they allow you to think of things in new ways.

1) the situation (just those items germane to the topic of computer obviated thinking): depth, time, running profile of the dive, max. depth, total time, time left, gas supply, rate of gas use, gas time left, buddy's time/depth/profile/gas situation as well, temperature, effect of temperature on the dive.

I'll tackle these one at a time...
Depth -- A gauge doesn't make your awareness of depth any better...you still have to look at it to know how deep you are. Computers are the same way...they display a number which is digital (i.e. easier to read) rather than analog
Total time - again...just a number on a computer
time left at depth - for anything other than the simplest of dives, you'd have to be crazy to not look at the tables prior to jumping in the water...you should know approximately what kind of time you are dealing with...this is all part of dive planning
Rate of gas use - I don't know about you, but calculating my current SCR under water ain't gonna happen. I know what my normal SCR is, but my computer tells me "Hey...you have 17 minutes left of air if you keep breathing the way you are." This information is enormously helpful and tells me to slow my breathing down....

I won't continue with all of them, but a computer helps your situational awareness by giving you more information.

2) awareness (again just those items germane): cognitively having these situational elements of the dive in mind. As my brain gets used to paying attention and thinking I will know what my spg is reading at anytime during the dive before looking at it. I will know my time by looking at my spg. I will have a good idea of what my buddies spg reads at anytime during the dive. I will know how much time we have left and where we are in relation to the NDL.

I usually know my tank pressure before I look at it too...in fact, this is a game I play with myself underwater....'cuz if my computer/gauge breaks, and I have no clue...I'm screwed. My girlfriend freaks out everytime I cook something in the oven because I get up to check on dinner 30 seconds before the timer goes off...so I'm pretty aware of time at depth also. I'll admit that I'm not so good at knowing what my buddies pressure is all the time, but that's because I don't currently have a regular dive buddy...I go with different people all the time and my buddy check skills need improvement. As far as NDLs...this goes along with pre-dive planning.

It seems that you aren't necessarily against use of computers, but against typical "bad use" of computers. I know...there are many people who hop in the water and go without having any idea of what the NDL limits are, thinking, "my computer will let me know." These are the same people that ride the 0. Computers CAN be use intelligently.

 

[Soggy]

Uncle Pug once bubbled...
You are only kidding yourself if you think that your computer helps you think for yourself and make decisions on your own.

Do you have any facts to back this up, or do you just believe this because you found yourself not thinking when you use a computer?

I am quite certain that I am a safer diver with a computer than without.

 

[Uncle Pug]

DeWDiver: no... I definitely don't trust my math skills and the problem isn't in using a computer to figure out things... it is the way folks use a submersible dive computer that is the problem... along with the way the things display information. You see most folks are not paying attention to the dive as it unfolds... they are letting the computer monitor that for them. Their situational awareness is severely compromised because of their dependence on the computer. BTW most folks continue to repeat the misunderstanding that it is either computers or tables.... but there is another way .

Scuba: my old fashion timer/depth gauge is a Suunto Stinger that lives in gauge mode. It is not a computational device while in gauge mode.... it is a measurement device.

-BlueHole-: I'm glad that you were able to catch my drift... practice.

Aaron: I'm glad that you are paying attention to your consumption and are able to tell what your spg reads before looking at it. Computers however do not tend to enhance situational awareness for most folks.... they allow folks to get away with mental laziness. I have had several prominent posters (and experienced divers) on this board tell me that they don't use computers on tech dives... but when they are doing recreational reef dives they use them because they don't want to have to think!

Aaron: you may indeed be a safer diver using a computer than not... but it isn't because you are thinking more... you are letting the computer think for you... and if you were not such a fine fellow you could very well be less safe as many folk do indeed ride the *0*.