Why do we hate the Air2?

[danvolker]

I'm not ridiculing anything here. You seem to be now talking about doing 200 to 300 ft dives and doing "deco" stops. I'm not sure that's what any of this was about until now I guess. I was just saying that I don't know that I would do a "Safety Stop" if I was helping an OOA diver in "Recreation Diving" as my post said.

I did not bring up the "optimal offgassing position" issue.... I just decided to explain why many DIR's will say that. My explanation used 200 and 300 foot dives, to help exagerate the bubbles in blood idea, and the theoretical aspects of dealing with this.....similar "Need" will exist for a lobster hunder that just did 60 minutes at 80 feet....even on nitrox, he has gotten a lot of saturation, and depending on workloads, fitness, hydration levels, and micronuclei, etc, he may have enough bubbling on his ascent for the horizontal trim throughout the slow ascent to make a big difference....I would "expect" it to mean he will be less "tired" hours after the dive if he ascended horizontally. Again, irrelavant for the discussion at hand
I absolutely agree with YOU that if we have to get a new diver up to the surface, I am not going to waste any thought to his or her trim.... I will probably be dumping their BC for them, and doing the swimming that will get us up slowly...and because of this, I may very well not be vertical.....this whole thing is about handling a newer diver in potentially big trouble, and DCS is not being factored into this discussion, beyond just the obvious point we all agree on, about a slow ascent.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

When a diver is out of air, he will grab the ONLY thing that he sees in front of him delivering air, the primary second stage in the donor's MOUTH. Nothing else!!

Some will ... some won't ... about the only thing you can say with certainty is that when someone realizes they have no air to breathe, they'll do the first thing that comes to mind ... and that's highly dependent on the individual. I've personally experienced (twice) people calmly swim over and slash their hand across their throat ... just as they were trained to do ... and accept the regulator that I offered them. I've seen divers reach for the octopus. And I've known (but not personally witnessed) divers rip the reg out of someone else's mouth.

We're all individuals, with varying levels of training, experience, and personality traits ... all of which impact how we'd react in an OOA situation. There is no ONLY ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Are you implying that AirII use is more rocket science than using Octo. where one would need more practice with it than Octo.? Your statement applies to just about everything we do in diving.

Nope ... I'm not implying any such thing. You got it right the second time. The relevent question would be this ... how often do you practice your emergency skills? That question applies whether you're using an octo, inline backup, or necklace.

Sadly, a random sampling of typical recreational divers would reveal that the majority haven't practiced an air share since their OW class ... however many years ago that happened to be.

The problem, of course, is that if you got trained on an octo and then purchased equipment that included the inline backup ... that you weren't trained on its proper use. Did anyone explain to you how it worked? Have you tried it? Things rarely feel, underwater, like you'd imagine they would based on someone else's description. And one doesn't learn anything by reading about it ... the learning comes from doing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[James R]

Sadly, a random sampling of typical recreational divers would reveal that the majority haven't practiced an air share since their OW class ... however many years ago that happened to be.

That's very true. I thew my girlfriend an out of air a few weeks ago just to see what she would do. She looked at me like I was crazy and gave the "WTF" sign, not too much unlike this:

Not the reaction I was looking for, to say the least...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That's very true. I thew my girlfriend an out of air a few weeks ago just to see what she would do. She looked at me like I was crazy and gave the "WTF" sign, not too much unlike this:

Not the reaction I was looking for, to say the least...

Imagine how that would have worked out if she was with a diver who was really out of air ... and on the edge of panic ... :shocked2:

Hopefully she took that as a sign that the two of you needed to practice that skill more often ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[OldNSalty]

This has been a very interesting topic but I have found the solution. Let us all toss our BCDs and Octos and go diving.

 

[danvolker]

Nope ... I'm not implying any such thing. You got it right the second time. The relevent question would be this ... how often do you practice your emergency skills? That question applies whether you're using an octo, inline backup, or necklace.

Sadly, a random sampling of typical recreational divers would reveal that the majority haven't practiced an air share since their OW class ... however many years ago that happened to be.

The problem, of course, is that if you got trained on an octo and then purchased equipment that included the inline backup ... that you weren't trained on its proper use. Did anyone explain to you how it worked? Have you tried it? Things rarely feel, underwater, like you'd imagine they would based on someone else's description. And one doesn't learn anything by reading about it ... the learning comes from doing ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob nailed it with this....

There is too much assuming that an open water diver will be able to use the air II in the same manner they learned to use their octopus with .... Shops selling them should push a class or a video, and then tell these new consumers that they NEED to practice with this new gear...we NEVER see this happening....I have actually never seen an air II diver doing an air share drill underwater, in the last 20 years of diving.
If shops were pushing this, I am pretty sure I would have seen this.... statistically I would have run into this. I dive every week, on charter boats with plenty of assorted types of divers.

While we are at it, shops ( or boats) should ask OW divers when the last time they did an air share drill was...with their standard octo and triangle set up...It is not just the Air II that requires practice. Because the BEST USE of the Air II is different than how most were trained, there is a larger need for initial practicing and drills. Even a great diver should have tried using the Air II one time at least in an air share, before having to use it the first time in a real emergency.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

During my gas management seminars I routinely ask the audience how many of them have done an OOA drill since their initial OW training. Inevitably it's a minority ... last seminar it was 2 out of 17 who raised their hand to indicate that they've practiced the skill since then.

Those are not very good odds that someone's going to remember how to do it with the equipment they trained with ... much less with something different than they trained with.

It's one thing to (A) read about how a skill works and think to yourself "that's simple" ... it's something else to (B) practice the skill in a controlled environment ... and it's something else altogether to (C) do it in an actual emergency where things are happening that you can't predict or control.

You really DON'T want to be going directly from A to C without a few B's in between ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[VooDooGasMan]

I agree OldnSalty, I just not sure how my position in the water on safety stop should be, Oh heck lets just toss that one also.

 

[danvolker]

Another thought just came to mind on this.... How many times do you think a new diver walks in to a shop, buys an AirII, and the shop just sells it to him or just puts it on his rig for him, and that's it....the real point here being, in MANY of these sales, the new diver coming in has a relatively short primary hose....so this is NOT going to be the correct gear match.....What really needs to happen, is the shop will have to say.."How long is your primary hose ? You don know you will have to buy a longer primary hose to use the air II properly, right? "


Meanwhile, the shop owner could be thinking to himself..."I think I can get this guy to shell out the dough for the Air II, and I really need the sale....but he will be tapped out after that....so should I really push him --tell him that he has to pay for a brand new hose as well" ( most customers are looking for a discount, not an additional cost).


I'm just saying, I don't know for sure that shops will be inclined to risk a sale, by making the sale more expensive.
And we do see plenty of Air II's on divers with short primaries. At least if you could get these guys to drill, they would realize to take advantage of the Air II, they need a long hose...And then as they try again, they may figure out they need to practice air shares a bit....