Wing size for 5mm wetsuit aluminum 80

[dumpsterDiver]

I think most experienced divers know that loss of buoyancy control is associated with dive accidents, Tobin included. But I don't think that has anything to do with this thread. With regards to weighting and dive accidents, I strongly suspect that a common reason for uncontrolled ascents is unintended weight dropping, like a quick release pocket that falls off the BC. This problem would only be made worse by starting a dive with excess ballast and then diving with excess air in the BC. It has nothing to do with being underweighted at the beginning of a dive.

Technical divers with hard ceilings, very different scenario. And IMO anyone doing serious deco diving that cannot weight themselves correctly probably ought to reconsider deco diving.

Of course wearing "too much" lead is dangerous, but wearing enough to be able to hang from a sting at 15 feet AND not float to the surface from shallower depths is not "too much". I'm talking about being neutral with an empty tank at a depth of 1 foot.

 

[cool_hardware52]

LOL.. Now you are being dishonest. I advocated for enough lead to be neutral at a depth of 1 foot. I never said to wear so much lead that a diver can not tread water. To insist otherwise is ridiculous.

How did you determine how much lead *any diver* can tread water with for *any amount of time? Please do be specific.

I'd suggest that if you make the typical middle aged, infrequent diver 2-3 lbs negative you will greatly reduce the time they can comfortably tread water. What happens when this same diver is 6-8 lbs negative?

You have very clearly advocated for using less lead than is necessary to allow a diver to stop at any depth and to be able to breathe normally.

I made it VERY clear in earlier posts that I felt a scuba diver should be able to breath comfortably during all phases of their dive. To advocate that divers configure their gear so that they can NOT breathe normally is unwise.

How "normal" will their breathing be after treading water while 5 or more lbs negative?

I've posted my recommendations for weighting for single tank divers 100's of times

For divers using buoyant suits and normal volume single tank cylinders:

Adjust your weighting so you are eye level at the surface with a full cylinder.

The typical scuba tank holds about 5-6 lbs of usable gas.

A diver returning to the surface at the end of the dive will have both wetsuit compression and their lungs to offset this 5 lbs.

When exactly will this diver be unable to stop?

At 15 ft? Ummmm no. Wetsuit compression will easily offset 5-6-7 lbs

At 10 ft? See above

At 5' ft? Now they *might* be 1-2 lbs positive, easily managed with breath control

At 3' ft? Maybe, but probably not as wetsuits don't rebound instantly

At 1" ft? See above, besides who can't swim down when 2-3 lbs positive?

If a cold water diver in a wetsuit follows my recommendations they will actually be close to neutral when they first return to the surface.

Now *what* happens to the cold water wetsuit diver that followed my recommendations as they leave their 15 ft stop *and* breath normally?

Do they rocket to the surface and breach like Shammu?

Umm, no. They slowly drift up as their suit slowly rebounds.

Is it *OMG* impossible for them to stop this slow drift up if they need to?

Er, ah well of course, exhale and swim down a little, exactly they have been doing for the entire dive, exhale, get a bit negative, inhale and get a bit positive. Once they stop and or swim down a little they can *Gasp* OMG* breathe in again *Normally*

The reality is most will never get their weighting that close, and most will err on the side of too much weight, and place far to much faith in their BC to offset their failure to understand weighting.

My goal is help new divers actually understand 1) The risks 2) How to reduce them 3) How to make buoyancy control easier.

Your goal is apparently to encourage divers to pile on the lead, to make sure their "elevator" never fails to stop 1 ft..........

Still waiting for that *1* recreational dive accident report attributed to under weighting

You can dream up all sorts of tortured scenarios to try and defend your position, but the accident reports don't suffer from the same lack of honestly you do.

Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

How did you determine how much lead *any diver* can tread water with for *any amount of time? Please do be specific.

I'd suggest that if you make the typical middle aged, infrequent diver 2-3 lbs negative you will greatly reduce the time they can comfortably tread water. What happens when this same diver is 6-8 lbs negative?



How "normal" will their breathing be after treading water while 5 or more lbs negative?

I've posted my recommendations for weighting for single tank divers 100's of times

For divers using buoyant suits and normal volume single tank cylinders:

Adjust your weighting so you are eye level at the surface with a full cylinder.

The typical scuba tank holds about 5-6 lbs of usable gas.

A diver returning to the surface at the end of the dive will have both wetsuit compression and their lungs to offset this 5 lbs.

When exactly will this diver be unable to stop?

At 15 ft? Ummmm no. Wetsuit compression will easily offset 5-6-7 lbs

At 10 ft? See above

At 5' ft? Now they *might* be 1-2 lbs positive, easily managed with breath control

At 3' ft? Maybe, but probably not as wetsuits don't rebound instantly

At 1" ft? See above, besides who can't swim down when 2-3 lbs positive?

If a cold water diver in a wetsuit follows my recommendations they will actually be close to neutral when they first return to the surface.

Now *what* happens to the cold water wetsuit diver that followed my recommendations as they leave their 15 ft stop *and* breath normally?

Do they rocket to the surface and breach like Shammu?

Umm, no. They slowly drift up as their suit slowly rebounds.

Is it *OMG* impossible for them to stop this slow drift up if they need to?

Er, ah well of course, exhale and swim down a little, exactly they have been doing for the entire dive, exhale, get a bit negative, inhale and get a bit positive. Once they stop and or swim down a little they can *Gasp* OMG* breathe in again *Normally*

The reality is most will never get their weighting that close, and most will err on the side of too much weight, and place far to much faith in their BC to offset their failure to understand weighting.

My goal is help new divers actually understand 1) The risks 2) How to reduce them 3) How to make buoyancy control easier.

Your goal is apparently to encourage divers to pile on the lead, to make sure their "elevator" never fails to stop 1 ft..........

Still waiting for that *1* recreational dive accident report attributed to under weighting

You can dream up all sorts of tortured scenarios to try and defend your position, but the accident reports don't suffer from the same lack of honestly you do.

Tobin

That is a tough question.. "How much lead can a diver tread water with (on the surface in an emergency)?"

ANSWER: NONE, the diver ditches it.
Not that this will sink in but, I have consistently advocated that a diver (with a 5 mm suit and single tank) have enough ballast to stop the ascent and hang on a smb, while being 4-5 lbs negative.

This type of weighting will most likely allow the diver to stay slightly negative for the entire ascent and should put them on the surface EXTREMELY close to neutral.

Now in the extremely unlikely event that there is an emergency on the surface, and the BC fails and the tank is empty and they have no snorkel.. then the diver can simply drop some lead. As I mentioned initially in this thread, a more significant danger would be a diver who was told to dive with a steel plate and has unditchable lead. That is a dangerous scenario (when a BC fails).

I've been out of diver training now for a while... does ANY agency suggest that a diver configure themselves with so little lead that they can not breathe normally, control their buoyancy and be stable at any depth range that they plan to dive?

 

[cool_hardware52]

That is a tough question.. "How much lead can a diver tread water with (on the surface in an emergency)?"

ANSWER: NONE, the diver ditches it.

Why then do we see *repeatedly* accident reports where divers panic, return to the surface, fail to inflate their BC, fail to drop their ballast, tire, and are found on the bottom with gas in their cylinder and their weight belt on?

One more time, the properly weighted diver needs to due very little at the surface to stay there even if they have panicked, the over weighted diver has to

1) Add gas to their BC, which may have malfunctioned, or they may be out of gas, or panic prevents this action

2) Drop ballast, again this requires the dive recognize the problem and take the correct action. Panic can prevent this.

The reports of recreational diver being killed in such circumstances are not zero.

Stil waiting for that *single* report of a a recreational dive accident caused by to little ballast…..


Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

You call putting a diver on the surface in a close to neutral condition: "over weighting"? You never answered my question.. does ANY training agency advocate a gear configuration that precludes the diver from breathing normally?

Following this train of thought.. do any agencies teach divers to restrict or inhibit their normal breathing pattern during normal diving conditions - especially on ascent?

And another question, don't all agencies attempt to teach divers to be skilled in the jettison of lead in an emergency?

Do they teach this skill both on the surface as well as, removal (and replacement) of the (weight) belt while submerged?

Am I advocating anything different than what should be taught in a scuba class? It sounds like you are the one who is diverging from standard industry practices.

When you are confronted with this fact, you begin to attack me personally (calling me dishonest, claiming that I advocated for divers to be over weighted at the surface to a degree that they can not tread water etc.).

This whole discussion stems from a divergence in opinion over a total of approximately 4-5 lbs of lead (maximum), yet instead of acknowledging that the actual difference is "small" you escalate into unnecessary Ad Hominem attacks against me. I'm going to avoid reciprocating, but to be very honest - I don't understand your motivation in this regard.

And possibly to provide some perspective, let me copy my original comments to you..

I feel otherwise. The error should be made toward over-weighting a diver. Why? Easier descents, the ability to stop an ascent at 5 ft, should a live boat appear above their head and probably most importantly: SMB deployment.

If an SMB is deployed, then it needs to be pulled downward to remain vertical at the surface. This requires that the diver have some excess ballast at the safety stop. Not a lot, but maybe 4-5 lbs. People have enough trouble deploying an SMB without having to struggle to swim down and fighting the tendency to float up and get tangled in their now slack smb tether line.

I agree that new divers are often grossly overweighted, but this does not mean that it is better to weight them so they can not arrest an ascent from 12 feet, should they decide to do so.

If you want to talk about common and dangerous weighting practices.. then my vote would be putting recreational divers in the water with zero ditchable ballast. How many times do we read SB members tell others that they should never ditch weight while underwater..so.. why even have ditchable lead..You know the line.. put all your weight in a steel plate on your back.

 

[tbone1004]

neutral at 1ft with how big of a breath? if it's a full breath, then they are 6lbs overweighted on average, which can become dangerous at depth with thick wetsuits.... If it's 1ft with a slightly less than normal breath, then that is what we are advocating, but not what you are indicating by offsetting the buoyancy of your SMB with lead on your body. Similar to lift bags, you should weight that item individually. Using your BC as a liftbag is not safe, similar to using lead on your body to control a DSMB isn't safe.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I feel otherwise. The error should be made toward over-weighting a diver.

I remain unimpressed with your "feelings" I deal in facts. We are air breath mammals, the surface is the unlimited source. Making it easier for a panicked diver to stay at the surface is the safer alternative.

Although I know you will again dodge the question I'll repeat it; Where are the accident reports for recreational divers that found underweighting to a factor?

Why? Easier descents

How exactly is having to swim down 5 ft (assuming a neutral diver at the surface) dangerous?

If an SMB is deployed, then it needs to be pulled downward to remain vertical at the surface. This requires that the diver have some excess ballast at the safety stop. Not a lot, but maybe 4-5 lbs. People have enough trouble deploying an SMB without having to struggle to swim down and fighting the tendency to float up and get tangled in their now slack smb tether line.

Use a well designed SMB and you need very little down force to keep it up right. Do let me know if you need a lesson in the physics of SMBs.

I agree that new divers are often grossly overweighted, but this does not mean that it is better to weight them so they can not arrest an ascent from 12 feet, should they decide to do so.

Nothing I've advocated prevents a diver from arresting an ascent. They simply exhale, swim down a bit and breath normally. Why do you continue to misrepresent my recommendations?

If you want to talk about common and dangerous weighting practices.. then my vote would be putting recreational divers in the water with zero ditchable ballast. How many times do we read SB members tell others that they should never ditch weight while underwater..so.. why even have ditchable lead..You know the line.. put all your weight in a steel plate on your back.

Another red herring? In cold water I've always advocated having some ditch able ballast, at a minimum ballast equal to weight of the gas in single cylinder carried on their person, not on their rig. If you had ever tried to purchase a set of our bolt on weights you'd know exactly how adamant I am about this.

But of course that doesn't stop you from implying something 180 degrees from what I actually recommend.

In warm water with little to no exposure suit all that is left to ditch is the divers rig. Take a diver who is neutral and add a reg (~-2lbs) and the least negative BP&W (~-2) and a buoyant al 80, ~+3 at 500 psi and all you can ditch is the rig in the event of a buoyancy failure. Those are simply facts.

Tobin

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I remain unimpressed with your "feelings" I deal in facts. We are air breath mammals, the surface is the unlimited source. Making it easier for a panicked diver to stay at the surface is the safer alternative.

Although I know you will again dodge the question I'll repeat it; Where are the accident reports for recreational divers that found underweighting to a factor? How exactly is having to swim down 5 ft (assuming a neutral diver at the surface) dangerous?Use a well designed SMB and you need very little down force to keep it up right. Do let me know if you need a lesson in the physics of SMBs.Nothing I've advocated prevents a diver from arresting an ascent. They simply exhale, swim down a bit and breath normally. Why do you continue to misrepresent my recommendations?

Another red herring? In cold water I've always advocated having some ditch able ballast, at a minimum ballast equal to weight of the gas in single cylinder carried on their person, not on their rig. If you had ever tried to purchase a set of our bolt on weights you'd know exactly how adamant I am about this.

But of course that doesn't stop you from implying something 180 degrees from what I actually recommend.

In warm water with little to no exposure suit all that is left to ditch is the divers rig. Take a diver who is neutral and add a reg (~-2lbs) and the least negative BP&W (~-2) and a buoyant al 80, ~+3 at 500 psi and all you can ditch is the rig in the event of a buoyancy failure. Those are simply facts.

Tobin

Great! you are finally changing your tune (now). Congratulations! You finally agree with me!

You are now advocating that a diver be neutral at the surface! Exactly what I have been saying all along. Of course with a 5 mm suit, the compression is going to make them - say about 4 lbs negative at 15 ft which is EXACTLY what I have said all along.

 

[tbone1004]

and what about 3mm's or no wetsuit? Tobin hasn't changed his recommendations at all, the degree of negative buoyancy at a safety stop is determined by the suit compression and remaining gas in the bottle but has nothing to do with how you weight yourself. The sum of parts to determine the lead you wear creates neutrality at the surface, you have been advocating adding additional lead to offset DSMBs and various other reasons, also advocating ditchable weight which goes against the whole point of diving a balanced rig where you should never have to dump weight.

 

[Storker]

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