Wreck penetration and queuing

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OHNOES! They should all be dead!! :eek:
[video=youtube;_qk3z4t3uHg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qk3z4t3uHg[/video]

More on topic, this kinda wreck dive is done thousands of times every day around the world...
[video=youtube;nrmtgHUEYio]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrmtgHUEYio[/video]
What might not be so easy to notice from the video is the fact that the current was pretty bad when those clips where shot - you'd be off to Saudi Arabia in an instant if you DIDNT stay close to or inside the wreck (or on the flagline)...
 
At popular wrecks, when different dive boats and independents show up to dive it,do strangers just share the same reel/line into the wreck? Is there a sort of right of way , like on the road (maybe who dropped anchor first?)
Thx

Don't even THINK of going inside of a wreck. Don't touch or follow anybody's lines or reels. You have a WHOLE LOT of diving and much more extensive training to complete before thinking of entering a wreck.
 
There is not supposed to be any penetration on the AOW wreck dive, however...

There has been a small but (IMO) significant nudge in thinking about overhead environments this year. In the past, the general thinking was that no overhead environments were allowed without the appropriate training, most of which is in the world of tech diving. PADI has now accepted a Distinctive Specialty called Understanding Overhead Environments. It is almost entirely an academic session only, with only one optional pool session to introduce non-silting kicks, and no OW dive.


Not sure what to think about that specialty. In a way it still shows that there should be some training to go into overhead environments but it looks like a dumbing down of Cavern, which PADI already offers.
 
That I know thanks, I'm waiting for the OP to point to where he got that impression. After all, that's what he said. I can't find it anywhere on the website.

i got my impression from reading their webpage, which i came across by googling 'padi backup torch wreck reel advanced'.

there is a bit on their web page,that it informs students they will need a wreck reel & 2 torches before the course starts

wouldnt it be reasonable for a novice diver (like me) to assume 2 torches & wreck reel would be used for a submarine penetration?
 
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wouldnt it be reasonable for a novice diver (like me) to assume 2 torches & wreck reel would be used for a submarine penetration?

Well, if the AOW wreck adventure dive is meant to provide an 'intro' or 'primer' to the subsequent full specialty, it's not bending too much logic for part of that experience to include an introduction to the proper/minimum equipment for wreck diving. How to carry it, how to deploy and re-stow it, performance issues, pros and cons of different options for reels or torches. None of that necessitates an actual penetration.
 
i got my impression from reading their webpage, which i came across by googling 'padi backup torch wreck reel advanced'.

there is a bit on their web page,that it informs students they will need a wreck reel & 2 torches before the course starts

wouldnt it be reasonable for a novice diver (like me) to assume 2 torches & wreck reel would be used for a submarine penetration?


Thanks for your reply. Good that you are asking questions, but be careful that you are "interpreting" too much in what you are reading. The website states that for the AOW class, some of the equipment you need is "a surface marker buoy with a wreck reel". That is not the same thing as "a surface marker buoy and a wreck reel".

Sorry I am coming off as bit of an ass, but often when stuff is presented in a post as a fact, and not as an understanding, it can lead to miss-understanding on the part of the folks who reply to you.
 
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Opinion only. After 38 years of Great Lakes wreck diving. We took the time and money to drive to Florida and over the course of one year, got our cavern, intro to cave and then full cave. So that we could dives the wrecks more safely.
Back then wreck diving was done by "progressive penatration" and lines and reels weren't used. Ken


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The idea of that is to allow the divers to understand that just because they can penetrate most of the swim throughs in Cozumel or the simple wrecks in south Florida without a problem, that does not mean they will be safe in more complex environments.

First great info there in terms of what is being considered.

But its wrongheaded, because telling people that they can break the rules about overhead environment means that we are giving them license to make a decision to dive in an overhead environment without giving them the tools to make the decision on whether it is safe to do it. Because for most of us, we realized the true vaule of overhead environment tech training only when we realized how much we came short of what was need to safely manage tech diving situations when we first started our tech classes.

My personal deciding line on entry intro in overhead, after doing tech training, is without redundancy I don't go into overhead environments, period, because tech training showed me why every bit of redundancy was necessary. And I know I can swim, without gear, from any recreational depth to the surface safely, and I know I can dive do a hour dive without a mask, and could do all that before my tech training, because I practiced those things unless unlike almost all the other recreational divers in the world.

And yet

My wife and I have been qualified now (AOW / Deep / Nitrox) for nearly 3 years and have around 150 dives each. We are both confident in the water, have pretty solid buoyancy / trim skills and are very conscientious with dive planning and gas monitoring. I think we are pretty safe divers but I'm increasingly aware that we really aren't prepared for emergencies as we haven't really practiced some basic skills since qualifying.

We will occasionally flood and clear our masks (eyes closed!) to fix fogging and have shared air just for the hell of it a couple of times but I can't be confident how either of us would really react if our mask was suddenly kicked off or in an emergency OOG situation. I think we could really benefit from some targeted, progressive practice in these areas and would appreciate comments on the following.

(Note the training level and dive counts)

How far down a hallway in a wreck/cavern swim through does one have to go before they figure out it's one way, and they need to turn around and can't before they cannot back kick? How far down a one-way hallway can a diver safely go who is not sure if they can manage no mask swimming? How far down a one way hallway can one safely go before they realize there is no way in hell they can signal their buddy that they are OOA, and no way for them to to see their buddy signal OOA.

Some overhead is OK is a wrong headed move because standard recreational gear does not have redunduant masks, redundant regs and/or long hoses, and few recreational divers even have a glimmer of what it means the reg in your mouth is stolen from behind.

Look we can get away with being sloppy, and fudging the rules, not because the rules sometimes don't count, but because the rules are there for boundary cases, and not typical cases, so most of the time breaking them has utterly no repercussions.

I can get away with playing soccer in the street in front of my house for about 23 hours a day, but I can never safely play soccer in the street in front of my house. No repercussions does not equal safe.

I will also say that PADI is doing wild windmills trying to correct the fact that they have been allowing basic standard violations (no overhead envirnoments in training) with their two overhead environment class simply because they were doing a money grab and they did not yet have a tech training. Now that they have a tech side, they should pull all the Wreck Diving Specialty Instructor and Cavern Diver SPecialty Instrcutor cards out there. But they won't.

I have both ratings, but I won't teach them as recreational course, unless people are in fully redundant setups, and have done the training to use them. On the other hand, at no point in any Wreck Diving course that I have ever seen/helped with (as opposed to taught), had the students, let alone the instructor in any sort of redundacy or any sort of gear.

---------- Post added July 5th, 2014 at 10:43 AM ----------

Well, if the AOW wreck adventure dive is meant to provide an 'intro' or 'primer' to the subsequent full specialty, it's not bending too much logic for part of that experience to include an introduction to the proper/minimum equipment for wreck diving. How to carry it, how to deploy and re-stow it, performance issues, pros and cons of different options for reels or torches. None of that necessitates an actual penetration.

And no one fumbling with a reel for the first ten times they use it, should be doing it in a confined environment. I like to to tell people you have not learned how to use a reel well enough to count on a reel until you have managed to bird's nest it, and have firgured out how to solve that problem, and found out why we say two cutting devices reaching by both hands, because they first time you drop your cutter that was reachable with both hands and you are stuck trying to get the other cutter free off a wrist mount on your wrong hand....

And no one should be learning how to do that in an overhead.
 
Not sure what to think about that specialty. In a way it still shows that there should be some training to go into overhead environments but it looks like a dumbing down of Cavern, which PADI already offers.
many thousands of OW divers go into overhead environments every year. It is a rare first dive in Cozumel that does not include swim throughs. Want to dive in South Florida? Just about every first dive of a boat trip goes to a wreck, and everyone penetrates. What percentage of them have taken a cavern diving course? I am sure it rounds off to zero. Cavern diving is primarily a skills course. This is not a skills course. In the last section, it teaches what courses are needed to enter more complex overheads. One of the recommended courses would be cavern.

First great info there in terms of what is being considered.

But its wrongheaded, because telling people that they can break the rules about overhead environment means that we are giving them license to make a decision to dive in an overhead environment without giving them the tools to make the decision on whether it is safe to do it. B
As is noted above, many thousands of divers enter overheads without any training now. They have no guidance to help them make the decision on whether it is safe to do it. The entire purpose of the class is to give them that guidance, which they are not getting anywhere else
 
i got my impression from reading their webpage, which i came across by googling 'padi backup torch wreck reel advanced'.

there is a bit on their web page,that it informs students they will need a wreck reel & 2 torches before the course starts

wouldnt it be reasonable for a novice diver (like me) to assume 2 torches & wreck reel would be used for a submarine penetration?

In a classroom environment, additional equipment means additional complexity. Part of understanding new equipment is understanding where to store it, how to deploy it, etc. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about what you'll be doing at this point in your diving career. Everything is new.
 

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