Why are divers so tolerent ?

Had an interesting discussion while on last holiday with a number of DM/Instructor level divers.

Basicly comparing the safety culture in Diving to Airsports. Not just light aircraft but Paragliding, Parachuting, Microlights and Hanggliding.

Without knowing the stats I suspect that the safety records are somewhat similar.

One interesting cultural difference stands out - Tolerence of Idiots.

In Aviation when someone does something really stupid or dangerious most/all other pilots will go to great lengths to convince them to stop flying OR have them banned.

This naturally applies less to students than experienced pilots for whom there is little tolerence.
At an instructor level there is NO tolerence and even a couple of complaints may be enough for a temporary suspension. Instructors know the rules are brutally strict so they almost never cut corners or act carelessly.
Fixed price cerification courses (OW for $500) are uncommon in flying because each student requires a different amount of training before they reach the same level of proficiency.

When instructors have students that are beyond teaching, most will persevere for a bit but will eventually give up and advise the student that they just dont have the coordination/talent/aptitude.
I have NEVER heard of that happening in diving and I suspect that has more to do with PADI's 5yr growth forcast than best practice.

After a person learns the basics if they make stupid decisions or act recklessly then the consensus is that there is little hope they will improve over time. In fact, as they get more confident they become MORE likely to hurt themselves or others.

Diving seems to have a culture that no matter what you did you should just learn from the mistake and NEVER give up diving or admit that you may not be cut out for it.

Some people who try to play a musical instrument find the same thing and it is no shame to admit you lack musical talent.

Divers (and even Divemasters and Instructors) also dont tell other divers that they are being idiots (dangerious or just stupid) with nearly the same regularity as in Airsports.

Some examples of things I have seen are.
1) Running out of air at depth because of forgeting to check guage.
1a) Surfacing way too fast as a result of 1.
1b) Continuing to dive when computer is on lockout as a result of 1a
1c) Diving way beyond NDRs because computer is on lockout anyway as a result of 1b
2) Touching dangerious marine life. (lionfish)
3) Deliberately running out of air by continuing diving until only 10bar left and doing a "quick" safety stop.
4) Poking marine life with sticks hard enought to cause injury
5) Drinking (more than 1 beer) between dives
6) Going so far off a dive route that could not be found at the end of the dive without movignthe boat to search (current)
I could go on....

In all of these cases most other Divers (that know better) just shake their heads and ignore it.

I have seen fistfights in Airsports over someone just failing to comply exactly with a landing procedure even when it didnt even come close to causing an accident.

I suspect the prevailing attitude in diving is "its their life - their problem" but that's not the whole story is it ?

Aviation is a federally regulated industry/sport/hobby.

Diving is not.

If you crash an aircraft, odds are you will kill other people.

Davy Jones usually only gets the diver screwing up.

Most of the time you are flying with a load of explosive fuel.

It's so hard to blow up a scuba tank underwater, it's only been done in 'Jaws' :boom:

In flying, you are usually going fast, with a lot of potential energy.

Scuba divers can't do 3 knots if a Great White is chasing them.

Bottom line is, it's difficult for a scuba diver to kill anyone but themself, and most people don't care when Darwin gets his quota of morons.

This is not the first time that I've seen diving compared with aviation on this board. I don't think that it's because there is any real corolation... I think it's just because many (or, at least, some) of the people on this board share theses two interests. It seems to be phenomenon as also several divers I know and even I am interested in aviation. It may be a natural pairing of interests.

In any case, back to the 'no real corolation.'

Another of my interests to which there is a marginal comparison to diving is mountain biking. The argument I'd like to use it here for is, there are different levels of aptitude. It's not like there is 'able to do it' and 'not able to do it.' I can ride pretty hard and enjoy some dangerous terrain, but I know that if I tried a professional downhill course I would just crash and potential injure or kill myself, no amount of training would get me to a point where I could do it and that's just that. Does that mean that I shouldn't be allowed on any trail ever, regardless of challenge level?

Granted I've seen mountain bikers do some stupid things to. Usually resulting in stitches and casts. Never seen anyone do anything so stupid as touch a lionfish, though.

Just to refine the topic.

Instead of saying

"Not just light aircraft but Paragliding, Parachuting, Microlights and Hanggliding."

Perhaps lets just compare Diving to Paragliding, Parachuting, Microlights and Hanggliding.

In most of those
1) You are usually only "directly" putting yourself at risk.
2) You are no carrying fuel (or with a Microlight not enough to be a big problem)
3) You are not going so fast that a crash will certainly be fatal. Particularly Para/Hanggliding.

Bottom line is, it's difficult for a scuba diver to kill anyone but themself, and most people don't care when Darwin gets his quota of morons.

Click to expand...

Provided
A) Noone actually tries to resuce the moron and puts themselves at risk in the process.
B) The Moron doesnt panic and involve another in the mishap.
C) (Most likely) Everyone gets involved in a massive delay to their vacation as the result of of an avoidable accident.

I would counter...

Even if your a moron, diving probably won't kill you. It can, and it might, but you can get away with real stupid stuff and live.

Gravity is not so forgiving.

And do you see the same diligance with Paragliding, Parachuting, Microlights and Hanggliding as you do with more conventional aircraft? As far as pilots self policing, I mean.

(Fair warning, I have been skydiving since '87, I know all about hook turns and dirt surfing. The guys who do that stuff are viewed as hotdogs, but they don't get too much sh*t about it at the drop zones I've been to.)

DeepSeaFox once bubbled...
I suspect the prevailing attitude in diving is "its their life - their problem" but that's not the whole story is it ?

Click to expand...

I've never witnessed this complacency.

There have been times when I have seen idiots with other groups of divers, and figured it was thier resposibility to keep the idiot alive.

But I've prevented people from diving before, fairly harshly (I chucked a guy's rig over the side once, he was drunk) at times, and ended someone's dive once or twice, so I'm far from complacent.

PhotoTJ once bubbled...
I would counter...

[snip]

Gravity is not so forgiving.

Click to expand...

Yes, but you can still breathe while you are falling. I dont see a big difference.

PhotoTJ once bubbled...

And do you see the same diligance with Paragliding, Parachuting, Microlights and Hanggliding as you do with more conventional aircraft? As far as pilots self policing, I mean.

(Fair warning, I have been skydiving since '87, I know all about hook turns and dirt surfing. The guys who do that stuff are viewed as hotdogs, but they don't get too much sh*t about it at the drop zones I've been to.)

Click to expand...

Different type of person.

I've seen people loop a paraglider too, but they know what they are doing. I would compare these things to divers with a lot of experience doing a Deco dive to 60+m.

Touching a lionfish is more like approaching a landing downwind. If other pilots see someone do that it would be hard to ever return to the site and you'd certainly not hear the end of it quickly.

DeepSeaFox once bubbled...
Yes, but you can still breathe while you are falling. I dont see a big difference.

Click to expand...

A diver might be able to make the surface on a breath. Even if it's from depth, they might make it.

No matter how cool they are, they can't turn off gravity. 32 ' per second per second applies no mater what they do in the sky.

DeepSeaFox once bubbled...
Touching a lionfish is more like approaching a landing downwind. If other pilots see someone do that it would be hard to ever return to the site and you'd certainly not hear the end of it quickly.

Click to expand...

Yes, but any dumb a$$ can poke a lionfish all day, and unless he's really trying to make a point, (no pun intended), at most, one or two people will see him. Perhaps none. A downwind landing, while perhaps no more dangerous, gets a lot more attention, because a whole airport/DZ sees it.

Aviation is more visible, not hidden beneath the waves. You screw up in the air, everyone on the ground can see it. Under water, only a buddy or a small group. Takes a bit more courage to chastise someone if you are the only witness to their tomfoolery.

So maybe that's the answer.

As an Instructor, I have the right & the responsibility to deny a student certification if their performance is not up to
standard...

...it doesn't happen very often ( mostly due to thorough screening of candidates )

...it isn't an easy or pleasant thing to do...

...but it must be done !

Do all Instructors abide these simple absolutes?

Evidently not.

Should they?

Absolutely!

How do we, as a self-regulating society of divers,
insure that they do?

#1. Tighten up the eligibility standards for wannabee Instructors

#2. Require a mandatory system of effective, Instructor quality assurance for all certifying agencies

#3. Require regular requalification & upgrading of practicing Instructors

#4. Impose universally strict repercussions for minimum standards violators


...This list could be expanded, it is by no means complete; what is important is the essence of the message:

" get serious about self-regulation, before government gets serious for us"

...Will this ever happen? Possibly, but only if government intervention becomes a serious threat. The human species is a reactive, rather than proactive lot. It usually takes a significant slap in the face to get it's attention, & the response is usually swift & indignant...

Regards,
D.S.D.

First off, "getting down" on someone ... even to the point of a fistfight ... is no way to convince anyone to change their behavior. As a diver, if I see someone doing something that endangers themselves I will usually approach them and ask why they were doing it ... with the hopes of starting a conversation constructively enough to inform the person without putting them on the defensive.

Now, if that person is willing to listen, engage in the conversation, and learn from the experience ... then all the better. Perhaps I can help them become a safer diver. If not, then I figure it's their life ... if they want to put themselves in danger, that's their decision. I won't dive with them though ... nor will I allow anyone else to without letting them know the mindset of the person they're about to go diving with.

In all human endeavors, some people will do stupid things. When I'm working with students or leading a dive, it's my responsibility to act to either prevent those things or bring it to the attention of the person at the first available opportunity. When not in class or leading a dive, it's really a matter of circumstances.

In any case, approaching a person in a confrontational manner because you see them doing something you don't like is not productive ... that only compounds the problem. If you cannot tell someone in a constructive, non-confrontational manner that they're doing something dangerous, then you're better off not speaking at all.

As to a lot of your examples, I just don't see as much of that kind of behavior as a lot of you apparently do. Perhaps it's possible that folks in this area take their diving more seriously than they do in other places.

Just my 2 psi ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)