Why are divers so tolerent ?

[DeepSeaFox]

I think DeepSeaDan hit it on the head.

" get serious about self-regulation, before government gets serious for us"

But it doesn't seem to be in PADI's charter dies it ?

An interesting observation is that PADI seems to be a for-profit organization and most Airsport bodies are NOT.

On a sideline - How did that happen anyway ? Anyone know?

The points raised by DeepSeaDan beg the question - Does PADI make it too easy to become/stay an instructor ?
It would seem in PADI's interest to do so.
More instructors = more new divers = more revenue.
Non profit Airsports bodies have a charter that is a little different. Promote the sport while keeping accidents to a minimum.

On a related point it seems to be increasingly more difficult to make a decent living as an instructor. Are there too many?
Is the law of supply and demand working against the good instructors?


From NWGratefulDiver

As to a lot of your examples, I just don't see as much of that kind of behavior as a lot of you apparently do. Perhaps it's possible that folks in this area take their diving more seriously than they do in other places.

Non substantiated observation is that people curb their behavior more when other people do. ALL the stupid/bad diving behaviour I have seem is in Asia followed closely by Africa. Never seen anything like it in US or Aust.
However, the participants were mostly Europeans and Americans. Except grabbing the Lion Fish that is.


BTW the Lionfish incident was motivated by the need to move it out in the open for a better photo. Girl involved got stung and prematurely ended a 7 day liveaboard for 9 other guests as she was taken back for treatment.


PhotoTJ - You seem to be trying really really hard to split hairs on this but I dont think you have a solid point.

32 ' per second per second applies no mater what they do in the sky.

Actually, (omitting dynamic lift for symplicity)

(9.8m x time) - (Air resistance x Speed / Mass)

Meaning if you are able to create sufficient air resistance for your Mass you can almost stop ANY fall.

Not much help for a skydiver with a failed chute AND reserve but applicible in most other aviation mishaps.

Apart from falling out of the harness a Hang/Paraglider or microlighter always can slow a fall given time and correct action.

 

[learn-scuba]

I'm with Custer -- I've physically prevented (not a fistfight, but physically restraining the person while I "reasoned" with them). I have also kicked one of my students out of the water, put them back on the boat, taken them back to the shop and told them I don't ever want to see them near SCUBA gear (theirs or anyone else's) again... that's a long story I won't get into here except to say this person was a significant danger to other divers.

As TJ has tried to make clear... it's a matter of degree when you talk about tolerance. How much tolerance is "acceptable" is precisely defined by how much room for error there is. The more room for error that exists, the more tolerant of stupidity you can be. Notwithstanding the chest-pounding SCUBA God/Goddess divers point of view, diving is not an especially dangerous sport and there is, accordingly, far more room for error.

All jmho of course.

 

[DeepSeaFox]

The situation learn-scuba describes sounds fairly close to what would happen PREDICTABLY in airsports.

It also wouldnt need to be an instructor that did it.


However, in my experience I have never seen anything like the situation learn-scuba describes happen in Diving and I dont think it is the norm.

 

[cornfed]

Custer once bubbled...

But I've prevented people from diving before, fairly harshly (I chucked a guy's rig over the side once, he was drunk) at times, and ended someone's dive once or twice, so I'm far from complacent.

That's ****ing hilarious!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Every PNW diving charter I have ever been on has stated, as part of the boat debriefing, that "your first drink is your last dive"... meaning that if you decide to consume any alcohol, you are done diving for the day. They don't even allow a one-beer limit.

And I have seen it enforced ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Custer]

cornfed once bubbled...


That's ****ing hilarious!

The sad part was, it was a father and son team, and the father was an employee (although not an instructor) of a Tampa dive shop. These guys were hammered at 9 am. I observed some buffoonery on the first dive, and went over to ask them politely about it. That's when I noticed, or I wouldn't have let them in the water the first time.

For my trouble, I was banned from the boat for life.

No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[BigJetDriver]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
First off, "getting down" on someone ... even to the point of a fistfight ... is no way to convince anyone to change their behavior.
Now, if that person is willing to listen, engage in the conversation, and learn from the experience ... then all the better. Perhaps I can help them become a safer diver. If not, then I figure it's their life ... if they want to put themselves in danger, that's their decision. I won't dive with them though ... nor will I allow anyone else to without letting them know the mindset of the person they're about to go diving with.

In any case, approaching a person in a confrontational manner because you see them doing something you don't like is not productive ... that only compounds the problem. If you cannot tell someone in a constructive, non-confrontational manner that they're doing something dangerous, then you're better off not speaking at all.

Just my 2 psi ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

This is an interesting discussion, both from its industry-wide implications, as well as on a personal level.

I wholly agree with Bob's approach. I might say something like: "Excuse me, but did you know that if you keep pulling that nurse shark's tail, she WILL take a chunk out of you, even as mild mannered as nurse sharks generally are?"

Of course, when the answer is the usual: "Who the #@*# do you think you are, @$$%*##?" I just back off and let Darwin and the Wheel of Karma take over!

In the professional end of the aviation industry, the rules are merciless and unforgiving, which is as it should be, given the responsibility involved. In the diving industry, I have to go with Tom Mount's often stated dictum: "Once informed of the risks, any fool has the right to risk his or her life as he or she sees fit!"

In diving situations, unless that activity is putting others, including humble self, at direct risk, I would not choose any more stringent measures.

As DeepSeaDan has pointed out, some measure of self-regulation is wise in our industry, lest Big Brother decide to "protect us from ourselves"!!!

I would welcome more thoughts on this matter!=-)

 

[learn-scuba]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...
<snip> I just back off and let Darwin and the Wheel of Karma take over! <snip>

lmao

 

[DeepSeaFox]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Every PNW diving charter I have ever been on has stated, as part of the boat debriefing, that "your first drink is your last dive"... meaning that if you decide to consume any alcohol, you are done diving for the day. They don't even allow a one-beer limit.

And I have seen it enforced ...

I have also heard the same warning all over the world.

In Australia and Palau it was firmly enforced.
In Thailand, Phillipines, Malaysia (diving resort) and Maldives it was ignored and the boat just overlooked the matter.

In other locations I did not see it tested.

A more common situation is drinking (a lot) until 3 or 4 am and then diving at 9am.

Surely other divers must have seen this.. or am I just lucky to always be on the party boats.artyon: artyon:

 

[DeepSeaFox]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


In diving situations, unless that activity is putting others, including humble self, at direct risk, I would not choose any more stringent measures.

I have twice been on boats where an act of stupitity has shortened 10+ peoples holiday. So even if it is just Darwin at work it still inconvienienced many others.

Secondly I have been on a boat where we missed a lot of great divesites because the Divemaster couldnt trust the idiots not to kill themselves if he exposed them to drop offs or currents.

Finally I recently did Rescue Diver and now I would be likely to at least "try" to assist someone in need, Idiot or not. (At least to avoid another abrupt holiday termination.)
I expect most other experienced divers would also.
In doing so I would expose myself to some risk, why because none got hard on these guys in the first place.