Why are divers so tolerent ?

[rdriver]

There is an old saying in aviation " there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are very few old bold pilots!"
as with anything we do, most "hot dogs", thrill seekers or call it safety challenged are kept to a minimum through attrition. yes in aviation one of the key elements is to make sure the student gets the rote learning process down pat, unfortunately the one thing that any instructor can't teach whether it be in aviation or diving for that matter is how a student will react under stress or in a panic situation. once they pass the minimum standards as in aviation they pass..... what they choose to do with it after that is there own decision. I think that any dive instructor should reserve the right to fail any student that may not be able to meet certain standards and not pass a student just for the money as it seems in most PADI classes. I have seen first hand sometimes that an instructor is too close to situation the he to fails to see what the student is doing wrong, I know in flying I find that it works out better if the student switches off instructors from time to time just to see how they are doing everyone has there own opinion of how they interpret standards and by doing this it tends to make teaching more uniform and in closing everyone learns at there own pace, Diving is the only sport that I have seen where they rush you trough it whether you got it or not.
Just my O2 cents
Rob

 

[DeepSeaFox]

Custer once bubbled...


...when I picked up his Tank/BC and chucked it over the side and said "not today".

Brilliant! :banana:


The predominant oppinion amoung other posters appears to be that stupid divers only put the diver at risk.

I dont think that is the case at all, and thats why I would totally support Custer style action.

My personal preference is not to get phsical or agreessive but to adopt a Hanabal Lechter style of deep critisism. :twist:

Inquiring whether their apparant death wish is the result of some childhood sexual abuse usually gets a great responce if it is delivered with a mix of sympathy and sarcasm such that the target cant be sure of your angle.

 

[PhotoTJ]

Is that diving is full of just that, opinions. The actual facts and laws are few and far between. We can all think something is stupid, but that is really our opinion, one man's stupidity is another mans X-Games.

My opinion is that Steve-O should staple his scrotum to his forehead, instead of his thigh, and yet there are some people who think he is this generation’s Bob Hope. It's opinion.

An excellent example. The snorkel debate. There are those who are convinced that to dive with them is stupid, and as an entanglement hazard, potentially life-threatening. Do we prevent them from diving in kelp? Do we have Custer throw their snorkel overboard?

Ah, but those who are for snorkels are just as adamant. And, in fact, some places have passed a law, no diving without a snorkel. While I am in the 'snorkels are a good thing' camp, I think making it a law is a silly waste of a city governments time.

SeaJay has said he'll tell a Captain straight up, "You don't tell me how to dive, and I won't tell you how to run your boat."

Ultimately, who is right? The Captain, who has his opinion of how to dive safely, (and will be held responsible, as he's in charge of boat and diving operations), SeaJay, who knows what his skills are, Custer, who will throw Seajay's gear overboard, the fool who pokes the lionfish, or Steve-O and his staple gun?

We've all seen how hard it is to even get someone to think about diving with/without a snorkel and everyone of us are convinced we are correct.

It's opinions, some people's opinions, (and a healthy dose of luck), will allow them to get away with foolish behavior their entire life, and some people's opinions will get them killed.

Remember, they don't think they are doing anything wrong!

 

[cornfed]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
We can't let people make up the rules as they go along, they have to be accountable.

To who?

 

[cornfed]

rdriver once bubbled...
There is an old saying in aviation "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are very few old bold pilots!"

I've heard the same thing about divers and I think it is a very poor generalization.

I think that any dive instructor should reserve the right to fail any student that may not be able to meet certain standards and not pass a student just for the money as it seems in most PADI classes.

It's not PADI. Everyone likes to take cheap shots a them but they're not the problem. The problem is the individual instructors regardless of agency. My AOW card is from SSI. I bought it! The instructor even admited we didn't finish everything we needed to.

I have seen first hand sometimes that an instructor is too close to situation the he to fails to see what the student is doing wrong,

A good instructor should be able to tell when one of his students isn't doing well.


Cornfed

 

[cornfed]

PhotoTJ once bubbled...
Is that diving is full of just that, opinions. The actual facts and laws are few and far between. We can all think something is stupid, but that is really our opinion, one man's stupidity is another mans X-Games.

This is a bad example. People competing in the x-games are aware of the risks associated with their sport. You might think they're crazy but they know what they're getting themselves into. People who dive drunk or dive a ppo2 over 1.9 without training aren't aware of the risks.

An excellent example. The snorkel debate. There are those who are convinced that to dive with them is stupid, and as an entanglement hazard, potentially life-threatening. Do we prevent them from diving in kelp? Do we have Custer throw their snorkel overboard?

Ah, but those who are for snorkels are just as adamant.

Sorry TJ, but this too is a bad example. A snorkel may well be an entanglement hazard but diving with one isn't immediately life threatening. On the other hand, diving with a possible entanglement hazard and no way of freeing yourself (knife, buddy, etc.) can be.

And, in fact, some places have passed a law, no diving without a snorkel.

The laws were probably passed by non-divers who simply looked to the consensus standards in recreational diving for guidance.

SeaJay has said he'll tell a Captain straight up, "You don't tell me how to dive, and I won't tell you how to run your boat."

Ultimately, who is right? The Captain, who has his opinion of how to dive safely, (and will be held responsible, as he's in charge of boat and diving operations), SeaJay, who knows what his skills are, Custer, who will throw Seajay's gear overboard, the fool who pokes the lionfish, or Steve-O and his staple gun?

I'm with Custer, "I'm more concerned with preventing an imminent accident that changing anyone's behavior."

Cornfed

 

[CBulla]

Custer once bubbled...


I've never witnessed this complacency.

There have been times when I have seen idiots with other groups of divers, and figured it was thier resposibility to keep the idiot alive.

But I've prevented people from diving before, fairly harshly (I chucked a guy's rig over the side once, he was drunk) at times, and ended someone's dive once or twice, so I'm far from complacent.

Thats classic! Great infact! Was this the drunk from a later post on this? This is about my tolerance for drunk boaters and drunk drivers.

 

[BigJetDriver]

rdriver once bubbled...
There is an old saying in aviation "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are very few old bold pilots!"

cornfed once bubbled in reply...

I've heard the same thing about divers and I think it is a very poor generalization.

NOTE: Actually, Cornfed, it is not a generalization but a
"true-ism", or perhaps "aphorism" might be a better term. Truely, there are those who push the envelope both in aviation and diving, sometimes for good and sound reasons, such as in the case of test pilots or explorers. When you depart the outer edges of the envelope in aviation, and in diving, all sorts of strange things happen. Sometimes you survive them, sometimes you do not. In the professional end of aviation, this aphorism has sticking power as a way of saying: "Take the conservative, sensible approach, and we'll all survive this!"

Cornfed:
It's not PADI. Everyone likes to take cheap shots at them but they're not the problem. The problem is the individual instructors regardless of agency. My AOW card is from SSI. I bought it! The instructor even admitted we didn't finish everything we needed to.

NOTE: You are absolutely right in saying that this kind of problem is not confined to any particular agency. The final responsibilty is always going to come down to the guy at the sharp end!

Cornfed:
A good instructor should be able to tell when one of his students isn't doing well.

NOTE: AMEN! I would hope to God that will remain so!=-)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

DeepSeaFox once bubbled...


Didnt mean to single out PADI, same applies to NAUI etc. They are a company and only doing what a for-profit company is meant to do. One cant expect a pig to be anything other than a pig.

The question should be asked though "why are they a for profit company?".

Just so you know ... NAUI is a not-for-profit company.

Custer once bubbled...


I've never witnessed this complacency.

There have been times when I have seen idiots with other groups of divers, and figured it was thier resposibility to keep the idiot alive.

But I've prevented people from diving before, fairly harshly (I chucked a guy's rig over the side once, he was drunk) at times, and ended someone's dive once or twice, so I'm far from complacent.

I'm curious about something ... did anyone recover the rig? If not, were you held responsible for replacing the rig? I mean, even if it's rental gear that's several hundred dollars worth of gear you didn't own. It nice to say that people should be held accountable for their actions ... but how do you reconcile that against intentionally tossing someone else's gear off a boat?

Self-policing is one thing ... but at one point does it turn into vigilanteism? Sorry, but this just doesn't strike me as a responsible way to respond to the situation.

ElectricZombie once bubbled...

We can't let people make up the rules as they go along, they have to be accountable.

But isn't "making up the rules as you go along" exactly what some of you are proposing? See above ... when is it ever appropriate to toss someone else's gear overboard? And shouldn't the person doing so be held accountable for his actions? As a passenger on a boat, it's ultimately the captain's responsibility ... not that of another passenger ... to make a determinationi about someone's fitness to dive.

How would you feel if someone decided that, for whatever reason, you weren't fit to dive ... and so they simply picked up your rig and heaved it overboard? What if they were wrong?

If I were the boat captain, I'd have banned you from my boat too ... even if you had a valid point, the action itself was not yours to take.

Bottom line, if you want to "police" other people's actions, then do so responsibily ... otherwise, the consequences of what you're asking for may do more harm than good. Ultimately, the government will come down harder and quicker on vigilantes than they ever will on idiots ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Custer]

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...


Just so you know ... NAUI is a not-for-profit company.

Hardly, in the context being discussed. When the staff, BOD and the CEO work for free, gimmee a yell.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
I'm curious about something ... did anyone recover the rig? If not, were you held responsible for replacing the rig? I mean, even if it's rental gear that's several hundred dollars worth of gear you didn't own. It nice to say that people should be held accountable for their actions ... but how do you reconcile that against intentionally tossing someone else's gear off a boat?

Not at that time, No, and I didn't care.

I'm sure that (after I enjoyed my dive, of course), the captain's #1 priority was getting me off the boat before something really bad happened.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Self-policing is one thing ... but at one point does it turn into vigilanteism? Sorry, but this just doesn't strike me as a responsible way to respond to the situation.

Well, you weren't there to witness the suicidal ignorant attitude, or the complacency of the Captain. Nor did you witness the original buffoonery (ripping up large sponges and tossing them around). You've made it clear that due to matters of form and civility, you'd let the guy die.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
But isn't "making up the rules as you go along" exactly what some of you are proposing? See above ... when is it ever appropriate to toss someone else's gear overboard? And shouldn't the person doing so be held accountable for his actions? As a passenger on a boat, it's ultimately the captain's responsibility ... not that of another passenger ... to make a determinationi about someone's fitness to dive.

No, actually. When the Captain abstains from intervening in an obviously dangerous situation, you are faced with the choice of acting or not acting. I have no trouble making that decision, whereas you would have obviously let the guy dive, because you can foist the responsibility on another.

How exactly can you reconcile that, morally?

I can't.

And later when that guy was dead at your feet (hopefully the only one), what amazes me most is, you could rationalize why it wan't your fault.

We have a different explanation for that where I come from.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
How would you feel if someone decided that, for whatever reason, you weren't fit to dive ... and so they simply picked up your rig and heaved it overboard? What if they were wrong?

I don't put myself in that situation.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
If I were the boat captain, I'd have banned you from my boat too ... even if you had a valid point, the action itself was not yours to take.

That was discussed above. I guess you would feel bad about getting banned from a boat that permitted that type of diving. I would certainly never set foot on the boat again, but you do what you think is right.

NWGratefulDiver once bubbled...
Bottom line, if you want to "police" other people's actions, then do so responsibily ... otherwise, the consequences of what you're asking for may do more harm than good. Ultimately, the government will come down harder and quicker on vigilantes than they ever will on idiots ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver) [/B]

The only consequence was getting banned from the boat.

In other words, no consequence.