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Thread: Jacket BC or Wing BC

 


  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDSC View Post
    In all those trips, I have never seen a single DM or Instructor wearing a BP/W. Not once. And I have made it a point to look since joining SB because of all the wild claims made on these threads.
    1. Because it's a relatively new innovation - and still has regional bias in usage.

    2. Because most Instructors spend 90% of their time in a swimming pool or shallow water signing "you - watch - me" before doing a snorkel-regulator exchange etc.

    3. Because in areas where the kit isn't [yet] popularized, people on a DM or instructor salary aren't going to speculatively purchase and ship in new equipment from overseas - they'll make do with what they have.

    4. Because many (I'm tempted to say most) recreational instructors don't have a clue about stuff outside of their immediate threshold of scuba knowledge - that being OW, AOW, Rescue and DM training.

    Quote Originally Posted by BDSC View Post
    If the BP/W was so superior in it's streamlining over a jacket BCD, why haven't these professionals caught on? I mean these guys/gals dive pretty much 6 days a week and several times a day. If you are diving for a living, wouldn't that person want to be in a BC that gives them optimal performance under the water? I just don't understand why all these professionals haven't seen the light. Maybe it's just that they have such a high level of diving skills that it doesn't matter what BCD they are using.
    A rather desperate argument IMHO. Come to the Philippines, where many, if not most, serious divers are in BP&W.

    Quote Originally Posted by BDSC View Post
    Which has made me wonder the following. If a person wearing a jacket BCD has perfected their trim and buoyancy, are they the more skilled diver than the person wearing a BP/W since it is suppose to be easier to achieve perfection in a BP/W?
    By your rationale, skilled motorists should only by crappy old cars. Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDSC View Post
    It still seems to me that the superiority of the BP/W is more of a ScubaBoard phenomenon than anything else as I have never seen or heard this type of discussion outside of here.
    Perhaps you just need to travel more.... or extend your circle of friends?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    1. Because it's a relatively new innovation
    I thought they had been around for 10 years plus. Of course maybe that's "new" in the diving world. Don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    2. Because most Instructors spend 90% of their time in a swimming pool or shallow water signing "you - watch - me" before doing a snorkel-regulator exchange etc.
    Not really sure what that has to do with anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    3. Because in areas where the kit isn't [yet] popularized, people on a DM or instructor salary aren't going to speculatively purchase and ship in new equipment from overseas - they'll make do with what they have.
    Any they do very well with what they have. Maybe one of those, "If it ain't broke don't fix it" situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    4. Because many (I'm tempted to say most) recreational instructors don't have a clue about stuff outside of their immediate threshold of scuba knowledge - that being OW, AOW, Rescue and DM training.
    Now you're really reaching.


    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    A rather desperate argument IMHO. Come to the Philippines, where many, if not most, serious divers are in BP&W.
    Nothing desperate about it because I'm not arguing. Just an observation of mine. By the way, what is a "serious" diver? Sounds like a desperate term to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    By your rationale, skilled motorists should only by crappy old cars. Correct?
    How did you come up with that? Wouldn't my example actually be saying the motorists who learned to drive crappy cars would be better motorist than the ones who learned to drive the newer cars?

    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    Perhaps you just need to travel more.... or extend your circle of friends?
    I absolutely do need to travel more for sure. One of these days I'm going to come to your side of the world and let you strap me in a BP/W for an entire week and see if I can be converted. I'm going to be really pissed if I find you are right!!!!!!

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by -hh View Post
    Yes, although some "purists" will claim otherwise. Not to worry - - from a basic physics standpoint, a BC is simply a device that holds a bag of air, and there's only historically been three locations that this bag has been positioned:

    a) In front of the diver (horsecollar)
    b) Behind the diver (wing)
    c) Surrounding the diver (jacket)

    The difference between a BP/W and a "Rear Inflate" is effectively a pedantic hair-splitting exercise that tries to make a big deal out of the differences in the harness configuration that attaches that 'bag of air' to the diver, which are utterly insignificant for the general purpose (and especially novice) Rec diver.


    FWIW, over the past four decades, I've used all three basic styles. I've literally just switched this spring from using a Wing back to a Jacket, and am satisified with the change.



    -hh
    I had almost forgotten what it was like to have HH around, to keep us on our toes :-)

    Glad you are back HH...

    Now, as to the classic picture of HH wearing a harness with 3 bags of air attached, perhaps milk jugs with low presssure hoses and opv valves, we have HH performing perfection in trim and bouyancy, moving along on a low or no current dive, at speeds around .5 mph and slower....
    He can do anything his evil twin could do at this speed, with the bp/wing system....this is skill.

    However, since he was anchor diving in this still water destination, he has a problem when a storm comes up, and "no current" becomes 2 mph of current, and rising. Now his milk jugs are moving around, and catching in the stream of water flowing past him.

    There are many tropical destinations, where HH would be happy with his milk jug BC 100 % of the time.
    There are other detinations, where the milk jugs would be sea anchors, and where HH would suddenly develop a keen interest in a slicker bp/wing system. He would not need big statistical correlations for this... just his own keen observations..... Often good science is good observation.

    HH, visit Palm Beach, and dive some of the "wilderness sites" with me. Do a few with the milk jug bc system, and a few with a bp/wing system I will let you borrow. Then you offer some of your "observations" :-)

    ---------- Post added ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BDSC View Post
    I absolutely do need to travel more for sure. One of these days I'm going to come to your side of the world and let you strap me in a BP/W for an entire week and see if I can be converted. I'm going to be really pissed if I find you are right!!!!!!
    You only need to visit Palm Beach for this !!!! Just let me know :-)
    Regards,
    Dan Volker
    South Florida Dive Journal SFDJ.COM & www.facebook.com/WILD.DIVING

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    Quote Originally Posted by danvolker View Post
    You only need to visit Palm Beach for this !!!! Just let me know :-)
    Will do!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    In lieu of 'scientific data', I believe there is a vast amount of anecdotal evidence and direct personal experience from divers who have used both jacket and BP&W configurations.
    The plural of anecdote is not data.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    Until that time, please cease and desist from a counter-argument that has no evidential basis to disprove an acceptable claim.
    How about some physics. A significant component of resistance in water is total frontal resistance. The more surface area that you present in the direction of the movement, the more resistance you create and the more force you need to overcome that resistance (drag = kv^20 In other words, water resistance varies with the square of velocity. (to go twice as fast requires 4 times the power, 3 times as fast requires 9 times the power)

    Like it or not the single most significant factor in any divers ability to move through the water is not the gear configuration, it the diver's ability to generate the power to overcome the resistance of water, derived from their strength, fitness level, and skill - not their gear.

    Speed is power first, everything else just helps out a little bit.


    Side note: Anti-lock brakes were not introduced into F1 until the early 70's.
    Dave

    To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teamcasa View Post
    Like it or not the single most significant factor in any divers ability to move through the water is not the gear configuration, it the diver's ability to generate the power to overcome the resistance of water, derived from their strength, fitness level, and skill - not their gear.
    Then how does that explain my ability to effectively propel myself without fins, using bare-foot frog kick? Kick-and-glide isn't about power, or speed, but minimal drag resistance inhibiting whatever forward momentum you possess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teamcasa View Post
    Speed is power first, everything else just helps out a little bit.
    What about momentum? How water resistance nullifies momentum? I think that's more relevant to good diving technique than considerations of power or speed.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    Then how does that explain my ability to effectively propel myself without fins, using bare-foot frog kick? Kick-and-glide isn't about power, or speed, but minimal drag resistance inhibiting whatever forward momentum you possess.
    Ok, your begging for a compliment, fine - you are one amazing diver. But thanks for making my point.



    Quote Originally Posted by DevonDiver View Post
    What about momentum? How water resistance nullifies momentum? I think that's more relevant to good diving technique than considerations of power or speed.
    You can not have momentum without initial power.


    Look at it this way, If Lance Armstrong was riding a poorly maintained, 60's era beach cruiser and I was riding the best racing bicycle money could buy in a ten mile race, Lance would still get to the finish line with enough time to shower, have lunch, give two speeches and hand out 10,000 plastic bracelets before walking a mile back to the finish line to watch my fat ass, huff and puff my way across, cussing that skinny, hard seat all the way.
    BDSC likes this.
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    My non-scientific observation is that when I spent two weeks with Atlantis (Puerto Galera and Dumaguete) in The Philippines, almost all the DMs and much of the other staff who dove) were using BP/Ws. They were a hodge-podge of various manufacturers' offerings. I was the only BP/W-clad guest.

    My hypothesis is that they were free ti dive whatever gear they could get their hands on, as Atlantis doesn't try to push dive gear, and they have a lot of high current and/or muck diving. This, BP/Ws make a lot of sense.


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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by danvolker View Post
    I had almost forgotten what it was like to have HH around, to keep us on our toes :-)

    Glad you are back HH...
    No worries Dan ... BTW, speaking of keeping you on your toes, do you still have your business relationship with Brownie and/or Halcyon? Afterall, clear disclosures of potential conflicts of interest are in the public interest of the readership.


    Now, as to the classic picture of HH wearing a harness with 3 bags of air attached, perhaps milk jugs....
    No need to imagine any picture, since a fellow SB'er posted the real thing of me on a dive earlier this month; here's a re-link:



    Golly, all of those danglies are just horrible, particularly that big orange 6ft SMB with finger spool. And that trim position..tsk, tsk! And look at all of the bottom kicked up ... and why are the fins arranged that way? They're not in the correct orientation for a flutter kick! Egads, what a bad, bad, bad diver.


    There are other detinations, where the milk jugs would be sea anchors, and where HH would suddenly develop a keen interest in a slicker bp/wing system.
    You try to make it sound like you're the only person in the world who has ever dived in currents.


    HH, visit Palm Beach, and dive some of the "wilderness sites" with me. Do a few with the milk jug bc system, and a few with a bp/wing system I will let you borrow. Then you offer some of your "observations" :-)
    Since I've already done a few hundred dives with a wing, are you really going to try the argument that I simply wasn't using the correct brand? So then tell me Dan, just which brand is the right one? Is it the Oxycheq stuff? Oh, wait, they're out in Washington State, so that can't be the right one...

    Seriously, the only gear loan I'm really interested in is one where it is available to be dragged through the towing tank at Stevens Institute of Technology as part of an ungraduate engineering project (with written report) for the 2012-13 school year. Just let me know. I'm sure that Scott would be quite interested in putting his stuff up in a real head-to-head test against his old boss's products.



    You only need to visit Palm Beach for this !!!! Just let me know :-)
    Don't you remember???? I've already been to Boynton Beach (a mere!!! 15!!!! miles south)!!!!

    But I might be in the neighborhood again soon anyway to make a social call, as I need to visit a friend in the area. They're a personal priority and since we have other things booked, if we're able to do it soon, it is likely to become a quick Fri-Sun trip, which makes it hard to also squeeze in a dive.


    -hh
    Last edited by -hh; May 25th, 2012 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Close Quote tag missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by -hh View Post
    No need to imagine any picture, since a fellow SB'er posted the real thing of me on a dive earlier this month; here's a re-link:





    You're not fooling anyone with that picture hh! It had been doctored! The milk jugs are missing.

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