This morning in Egypt ...

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JB - you've been around the Red Sea since about the same time that I started there - what are your thoughts on the current accident/incident rate amongst liveaboards?
I would imagine that they have cut corners since the pandemic years. Alas, Egyptians always tend to think 'better' is 'cheaper.' Ayman Mussa started the Tornado Marine Fleet with the highest ideals. Who knows what he thinks now?
 
First – to the MV Hurricane liveaboard survivors and families of the deceased… as one of the survivors from the 2019 Red Sea Aggressor I (aka MV Suzana) boat fire, my deepest sympathies for what you are going through. I highly recommend EMDR therapy, it helped me a lot with my PTSD after our 2019 horror.

Second – hi divers! You all have a lot of great points regarding the recurring fire/safety hazards we face on liveaboards (especially repeat incidents in the Red Sea) and the problems with bureaucracy; lack of tracking accountably, affordability, personal responsibility by the companies/owners/workers – and our own need to do our due diligence, etc.

But for me, the anguish of my situation is that I/we did our research and booked with the popular US-based Aggressor company on their ‘luxury’ Red Sea liveaboard (right after the MV Conception fire) because they advertised their safety details in full (just like the MV Hurricane below). Their advertised promise made us feel safe - we trusted them because of the USA ‘Aggressor’ name and the higher-than-local-average-cost for the trip which we thought equaled the higher safety standards they promised.

We were promised ‘fire alarms, and 24-fire watch patrols’ before booking and during our safety briefing on the first day – but the Aggressor company and local boat owner/crew lied to us because clearly neither happened – they failed us. As a result, one person died, and the rest of us came pretty close to it. We survived no thanks to the Aggressor.

On day 1, we felt at ease - we all saw the shiny fire alarms lining the halls, the fire extinguishers under our beds, the life vests in the benches, the secondary escape route which lead to the crew quarters (which the first below-deck group to escape realized was blocked by a mattress and sleeping crew), we were told about the evacuation procedures to include where to go and that a headcount would be performed. The Aggressor said all the right things and we felt safe! What more could we have done (beside packing our own smoke detectors)?

The Aggressor who lied to us about fire alarms that would have woke us up and saved all of us - had these similar details posted online: Tornado Marine Fleet advertises that the Hurricane Liveaboard has “Full Fire Fighting and Alarm System Smoke Alarms and Extinguishers in cabins and at strategic points”

1686747602944.png



The fire alarms didn’t go off, we woke up due to the smoke. There was no one on watch because they would have noticed the smoke, and the crew was fast asleep blocking the escape hatch. Even after the fire alarms clearly didn’t work, the crew could/should have used the ‘dinner bell’ which was outside on the main deck to alert anyone missing – they had access to it, but didn’t bother/have the training regarding sounding an alarm – another failure.

And again for the record, no – the victim, Trish, NEVER made it above deck. She NEVER made it to safety only to turn around like the Aggressor HQ and local company repeatedly spread lies that she did – they failed her and us.


Frustratingly, the word doesn’t get out. Even as I read these latest reports of the Hurricane – the AP reported, “Fatal boat accidents are relatively uncommon in Egypt.” – they only listed two other incidents. I contacted them about the long list of others fires/deaths, but they never corrected it. And now, to them and other news companies, it’s old news. To the survivors, and victims’ families – we live it for the rest of our lives.

After time, this news gets buried – no thanks to search engine algorithms it might not even pop up on searches unless you know what you’re looking for… So those who would boycott these companies if they knew, don’t get the information. Or for instance, I’ve shared my story with fellow divers and some say, “it’s a one off and they’ve had good experiences and will keep using the company.” As for agents and local dive shops I’ve told - they still advertise for these companies and they still sell Aggressor’s trips to divers/customers who trust them – I’m sure without disclosing these issues.


Also with respect to lawsuits in an effort to hold companies accountable: in the Aggressor contract – you sign away your rights to sue the company in the ‘home of record where the purchase took place with the US based company’. If you want to sue, you’d have to do it in for example, in Egypt. You can see the complications of a single person with limited funds doing that. So despite the Aggressor company rubber-stamping these foreign based owner’s boats (giving the false sense they’re safe boats), they have zero accountability. They’re no better than the travel agent selling the trip – since they don’t actually inspect or take frequent trips on the boat. I do think there needs to be a better way to track these company issues so that consumers can make better informed decisions (while still traveling with our own fire/carbon monoxide detectors) – which should be with a non-profit group.

And the info should include owners/primary and secondary company details to identify bad operators (like Red Sea Aggressor) so we can avoid them. Ex: fire on Scuba Scene (which replaced RSA I in 2019) also managed by Ahmed Fadel. Survivors had issues with him too.

1686757763827.png



The USA State Department tracks deaths abroad, but provides very little information besides the location.


Regarding regulations – at the very least check for split escape routes before you book, though I will never book below deck again: Thanks to @Nick_Radov who posted the Coast Guard’s new issued safety rules for live aboard dive boats operating in US waters - reposted below. I recommend reading the NTSB report on the Conception fire (with bits regarding the Red Sea Aggressor fire.) When I interviewed with NTSB they said most of us survived despite the odds of the Aggressor’s failures. And lessons learned from the Conception fire, and the Aggressor fire, was that we had a “secondary means of escape exit to a different space than the primary exit.” [and the source of the fire]. “The NTSB believes it is imperative that operators of similar small passenger vessels act to ensure” this on all their ships. But without working smoke alarms, or an alert system (with a backup bell that can be initiated in multiple areas of the ship) – people will keep on dying and barely escaping with their lives.

Also, practice the evacuation procedure!
The Aggressor team only showed us a picture of the evacuation route - they never had us practice it like they do on other boats (like river boats for instance). After the safety briefing, me and another guy immediately checked it out - it was in a guest's room, up a ladder and through a very small access panel in the wall near the ceiling. I'm glad I did this visual because otherwise I probably wouldn't have remembered where it was - even still, it was disorienting. I highly recommended you insist the crew walk it with you: 1. to ensure it's doable and nothing is blocked (like it was like for us, and other posts in this feed), and 2. because the muscle memory of walking it. If you practice the route and mechanics of it, it'll come back to you like second nature when you have to do it in the panic of the smoky dark.

US Coast Guard issued new rules regarding: Fire Safety of Small Passenger Vessels based on NTSB’s recommendations.

Subpart D—Fixed Fire Extinguishing and Detection Systems

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is an independent U.S. government investigative agency responsible for civil transportation accident investigation. They are not a regulating body and can only recommend. It’s up to regulating authorities, like the US Coast Guard, which they thankfully did.

NTSB Conception fire, final report (portion below) note: Aggressor company, crew refused to be interviewed.

1686747618555.png
 
First – to the MV Hurricane liveaboard survivors and families of the deceased… as one of the survivors from the 2019 Red Sea Aggressor I (aka MV Suzana) boat fire, my deepest sympathies for what you are going through. I highly recommend EMDR therapy, it helped me a lot with my PTSD after our 2019 horror.

Second – hi divers! You all have a lot of great points regarding the recurring fire/safety hazards we face on liveaboards (especially repeat incidents in the Red Sea) and the problems with bureaucracy; lack of tracking accountably, affordability, personal responsibility by the companies/owners/workers – and our own need to do our due diligence, etc.

But for me, the anguish of my situation is that I/we did our research and booked with the popular US-based Aggressor company on their ‘luxury’ Red Sea liveaboard (right after the MV Conception fire) because they advertised their safety details in full (just like the MV Hurricane below). Their advertised promise made us feel safe - we trusted them because of the USA ‘Aggressor’ name and the higher-than-local-average-cost for the trip which we thought equaled the higher safety standards they promised.

We were promised ‘fire alarms, and 24-fire watch patrols’ before booking and during our safety briefing on the first day – but the Aggressor company and local boat owner/crew lied to us because clearly neither happened – they failed us. As a result, one person died, and the rest of us came pretty close to it. We survived no thanks to the Aggressor.

On day 1, we felt at ease - we all saw the shiny fire alarms lining the halls, the fire extinguishers under our beds, the life vests in the benches, the secondary escape route which lead to the crew quarters (which the first below-deck group to escape realized was blocked by a mattress and sleeping crew), we were told about the evacuation procedures to include where to go and that a headcount would be performed. The Aggressor said all the right things and we felt safe! What more could we have done (beside packing our own smoke detectors)?

The Aggressor who lied to us about fire alarms that would have woke us up and saved all of us - had these similar details posted online: Tornado Marine Fleet advertises that the Hurricane Liveaboard has “Full Fire Fighting and Alarm System Smoke Alarms and Extinguishers in cabins and at strategic points”

View attachment 787910


The fire alarms didn’t go off, we woke up due to the smoke. There was no one on watch because they would have noticed the smoke, and the crew was fast asleep blocking the escape hatch. Even after the fire alarms clearly didn’t work, the crew could/should have used the ‘dinner bell’ which was outside on the main deck to alert anyone missing – they had access to it, but didn’t bother/have the training regarding sounding an alarm – another failure.

And again for the record, no – the victim, Trish, NEVER made it above deck. She NEVER made it to safety only to turn around like the Aggressor HQ and local company repeatedly spread lies that she did – they failed her and us.


Frustratingly, the word doesn’t get out. Even as I read these latest reports of the Hurricane – the AP reported, “Fatal boat accidents are relatively uncommon in Egypt.” – they only listed two other incidents. I contacted them about the long list of others fires/deaths, but they never corrected it. And now, to them and other news companies, it’s old news. To the survivors, and victims’ families – we live it for the rest of our lives.

After time, this news gets buried – no thanks to search engine algorithms it might not even pop up on searches unless you know what you’re looking for… So those who would boycott these companies if they knew, don’t get the information. Or for instance, I’ve shared my story with fellow divers and some say, “it’s a one off and they’ve had good experiences and will keep using the company.” As for agents and local dive shops I’ve told - they still advertise for these companies and they still sell Aggressor’s trips to divers/customers who trust them – I’m sure without disclosing these issues.


Also with respect to lawsuits in an effort to hold companies accountable: in the Aggressor contract – you sign away your rights to sue the company in the ‘home of record where the purchase took place with the US based company’. If you want to sue, you’d have to do it in for example, in Egypt. You can see the complications of a single person with limited funds doing that. So despite the Aggressor company rubber-stamping these foreign based owner’s boats (giving the false sense they’re safe boats), they have zero accountability. They’re no better than the travel agent selling the trip – since they don’t actually inspect or take frequent trips on the boat. I do think there needs to be a better way to track these company issues so that consumers can make better informed decisions (while still traveling with our own fire/carbon monoxide detectors) – which should be with a non-profit group. The USA State Department tracks deaths abroad, but provides very little information besides the location.


Regarding regulations – at the very least check for split escape routes before you book, though I will never book below deck again: Thanks to @Nick_Radov who posted the Coast Guard’s new issued safety rules for live aboard dive boats operating in US waters - reposted below. I recommend reading the NTSB report on the Conception fire (with bits regarding the Red Sea Aggressor fire.) When I interviewed with NTSB they said most of us survived despite the odds of the Aggressor’s failures. And lessons learned from the Conception fire, and the Aggressor fire, was that we had a “secondary means of escape exit to a different space than the primary exit.” [and the source of the fire]. “The NTSB believes it is imperative that operators of similar small passenger vessels act to ensure” this on all their ships. But without working smoke alarms, or an alert system (as simple as a bell that can be initiated in multiple areas of the ship) – people will keep on dying and barely escaping with their lives.

US Coast Guard issued new rules regarding: Fire Safety of Small Passenger Vessels based on NTSB’s recommendations.

Subpart D—Fixed Fire Extinguishing and Detection Systems

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is an independent U.S. government investigative agency responsible for civil transportation accident investigation. They are not a regulating body and can only recommend. It’s up to regulating authorities, like the US Coast Guard, which they thankfully did.

NTSB Conception fire, final report (portion below) note: Aggressor company, crew refused to be interviewed.

View attachment 787911
Thank you for your insight and experience Ivy 202. It simply reinforces my intention to always book a main deck cabin and carry a smoke and CO alarm. On my most recent trip I never had reason to go below deck at all.
In terms of the frequency of these incidents, I think we can all agree that even one is too many. But we, as divers/passengers, can only control the controllables - and if we want to get to the best dive spots we probably have to accept there is risk (which is not to excuse the operators' failings in any way). If we take out a couple of years for COVID and assume the average boat does 40 weeks a year - then with say 100 liveaboards operating in the Red Sea and an average two of these serious incidents a year- then that makes 36 incidents in 72,000 weeks of liveaboard operation - or 0.05% chance of being on a boat that sinks or catches fire. I'm not making any comment as to whether that's an acceptable risk or not - each to their own.
 
@DandyDon I think you have posted this before, but can you post a link to the fire/CO unit that you and @Dan are using?

Thanks!
 
I'm not even sure if you'd need to package it up in the same way for a North American audience.... or if you even could. Flights are a real wild-card and you're pretty much stuck with regularly scheduled routes -- no dive op is filling even a narrowbody and there aren't explicit 'vacation' flights to Egypt. That being said, there are some very cost and time efficient routes via Turkish form NA hubs even direct to HRG/RMF via IST. Given Turkish's growth plans there may be some partnership opportunities there...
Yep. I took Turkish Airlines to go from Houston to Istanbul and Hurghada.

 
I think Aggressor handles this by offering their 'river tours' as an optional add on - before, after or not at all - your choice. You could do other similar things purely on land (with the ideas you've listed) - make it predictable and packaged unto itself but not part of being herded around everywhere in a bus. A single-point-of-contact marketing agency that can guarantee minimum standards and be a number to call if there are issues is probably enough, but a step short of the rigid packages that are done for EU/Brits with flights, hotels and everything else baked in

As mentioned in my trip report, I contacted MarsaAlam.com - Guide to the region, excursions, taxis and more. and did what Aggressor would offer for half the price. I even got local simcard (to install it into my unlocked iPhone) from them given to me via the chauffeur that came to pick me up in Hurghada and to take me to Port Ghalib, so I could text the land tour guide exactly when & where they could pick me up after the liveaboard trip.
 
@DandyDon I think you have posted this before, but can you post a link to the fire/CO unit that you and @Dan are using?

Thanks!
For travel and overnight stays anywhere, I'll just pack a battery-powered home Smoke & CO alarm, grabbing one off of the wall as I have several. They're not actually designed for travel so I test it every time I unpack, but I doubt that luggage handling is any rougher than regular shipping.

If you're shopping for an additional unit, First Alert made in Mexico & Kidde made in China are the industry leaders, but there are emerging brands that are probably just as reliable. A quick check on Walmart's site shows a First Alert unit for $23.47 weighing 7.6 oz. iFanze has one listed that includes a PPM display for $12.99.

You might want to write your name on yours with an indelible marker so it won't be confused as hotel or boat property, especially if you hang it outside of your cabin for early warning.
 
I will preface this by saying that I am a qualified commercial captain, and that I have lived and worked in Egypt, and intend to retire there one day.

Fire suppression on ships is not something that is perfected yet - very modern superyachts are often destroyed by fires despite having the very best fire suppression systems available fitted - search for a youtube channel called esysman superyachts and scroll down through his videos and you will see a number of examples.

Automatic fire suppression systems either on land or on ships are high maintenance and have a bad habit of activating when there is no fire. The key to anything in Egypt is keep it simple - I'm sure that Berndo would agree with me on that - whether it is a fire suppression system or the design of a new dive centre. An engine room fire suppression system in Egypt would need to be a simple system that is manually activated - a decent number of cylinders of compressed CO2 plumbed into some piping that distributes it in the engine room would be my way of doing it.

One thing to remember though is that an engine room fire suppression system isn't mandated for that size vessel in many parts of the world - there would be Aggressor fleet vessels that don't have engine room fire suppression systems, and many other liveaboards around the world so I wouldn't go pointing fingers at the Red Sea liveaboards because they are no different to many others around the world. Does anyone really think that they are going to find an engine room fire suppression system on your typical phinisi liveaboard in Asia? I don't.

And before anyone in the U.S. points fingers at the Red Sea - remember stones, glasshouses - and the MV Conception.
Since you are a captain, I wanted to know: is it sufficient to just have a manual systems and a fire alarm to stop most of fires? Or fires in such a vessel can get so quickly large that it wouldn’t be enough to make a significant difference?

If that’s an efficient way to protect the vessel, why aren’t the Red Sea vessels using them? Is the cost of running them more expensive than just taking the hit and insurance money when an accident happens?

Did they have a fire alarm on that vessel and did it get activated during the incident?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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