To those considering an OW class...

[BiggDawg]

The OW certification was never meant to create a perfect diver. It only means that the diver no longer needs an instructor or divemaster holding his (or her) hand to descend and ascend. The only way a diver gets better is by diving.

I disagree, I've seen plenty of carded divers that did need help ascending and descending, and a 12 foot deep pool allows a diver to gain experience and confidence, yes its not the same as a 30 or 90 foot dive,

Quite a different issue. Whether the diver can do a good job ascending or descending is not the issue. Without the OW training, the only way they are allowed to do so is with a babysitter, holding hands literally.
All the C-card does is allows them some autonomy, in preparation for practice and improvement.

but would you want someone operating on you when they had only 6 months of schooling or 6 years of schooling, yes all new OW divers will need improvement, but there is no reason why training shouldn't be able to crank out a diver that does not plow throught the bottom damaging everything they get close to, I dont' care how good of an instructor you have the minimum pool time required is not enough to get the job done.

No, of course I wouldn't want the untrained to operate on me. Isn't that what I said? But remember the entire quote (not edited and taken out of context). The OW C-card represents:

the bare minimum as established by the reputable accrediting agencies to begin on the long road toward perfection. Every one was new, once, be they diver or driver, pilot or surgeon.

I don't want the newest surgeon, but I'm not about to tell the AMA or state boards that their requirements are not sufficient. They stand as the reputable accrediting agencies, as do the certification agencies for recreational diving. They have determined the minimum level required for some autonomy. Notice, no one said "Optimal," or "maximum." It is the amount required to go and get more experience.

what I want to see offered up is a CHOICE as I also stated before, this will not reduce the number of divers, but given a choice for better education, it WILL increase the number of OW divers not destroying these reefs they are interested in preserving,

Excellent suggestion. What can I say? Choice is always good.
Unfortunately, it is also somewhat Quixotic. It is the available choice, between longer and more involved training, and the (for better or worse) accelerated/abbreviated course that the public is exercising their choice, and it is not, apparently, in favor of the more rigorous option. Those offering the more difficult course (your University, for example, as well as mine) are not seeing a flood of applicants.

If the course is longer, how will people know if they want to try? Normally risk-averse people will avoid taking longer scuba courses until they know that they like it. This is a basic cost/demand function. The higher the cost (be that in dollars, time, or both) the fewer will pursue the training, but that decrease in demand comes at a rate faster than the increase in cost. In other words, of "a unit" of increased cost, there will be more than a unit's decrease in demand.

There is absolutely no evidence that more commitment required to get certified will generate more commitment to diving. Besides, didn't you want to thin the ranks, anyway? Why not stop those who aren't interested before they even get certified? I recommend to potential diving students that they take a Discover Diving course or a resort course before making the commitment to OW training.

As I stated in a previous post, maybe the sport as a whole is too bloated and thats part of the problem, you HAVE to have this volume to maintain such a bloated industry,

as I asked before:

Why does this discussion always start to sound like, "Now that I'm certified, I got mine. Every body else needs to jump through more and bigger hoops!"

I did jump through beigger whoops than most of the OW divers out there, and when I hit the water I noticed very quickly that my time spent was worth it, also, what if the option of extended training caused a small percentage of the divers that get cranked out to be better, that will INCREASE the overall diver awarness that hey, maybe I need more training cause joe over there took that extended class and he's rockin on.!"

I have no doubt that you jumped through more hoops, and I have no doubt that you are a very good diver. But:

All of the classes in the world won't make a lousy diver, or one who is careless, a better diver. ... we do need divers following "Dive only within your limits, experience, and training. Know your limits."

All the pool time in the world will not create a diver who doesn't silt the bottom. I have never seen anyone who could silt the bottom of a pool. Conceivably, it could actually hurt the student divers' skills: "Wow! I'm silting up the cave! Funny, that never happened in all those hours in the pool!"

Like it or not, bouyancy and fin control come from actually diving. How do you practice staying level for an ascent and a 15' safety stop in a 12' pool? Like it or not, I have actually heard surgeons say (tongue in cheek, I hope) that "you gotta' kill a few to get good at it."

For those who were certified in a University setting, don't compare that with current recreational requirements. The University had its own agenda in making a Phys Ed course rigorous enough for the academic community and academic credit, be it a course in Scuba or a course in archery.

Why can't I compare it to current requirements, I have the same card as everyone else that took an express NAUI OW class, some of the people I dive with also took classes in the university setting and guess what, even fresh out of class they hit the water and you can see very quickly the difference, its not super man compared to super newbie, but there is a difference, is it because they made it more regorous to meet a phys ed course, I think not, it was total time under water and being taught before being turned loose to open water, I never had to do push ups or swim double the speed of the agency standard.

Okay, you can compare anything you want, including apples and oranges.

Point was, you were qualified by the certifying agencies requirements long before you finished the course, with much less required. Yes, you have the same c-card as every one else; but you have more. The University course undoubtedly made you a better diver, and the others of the class as well. But you were a better diver because of the extra time and practice, not because it was a University course. Not all students learn the same way. Some time, you just have to turn them loose and let them dive. Let them practice, it's whence the skill comes, it's from where your skill came. That is the OW C-card, nothing more. But then, it doesn't purport to be anything more. The University course was a C-card and more.

And the University course was more rigorous not to make you a better diver, but because the University needed more rigour to meet their needs, not yours, and not the needs of NAUI. NAUI was done with your certification long before the University was.

BD

 

[divingjd]

There have been many good points in this thread on just about every possible side and, even if it is beating a dead horse (no shortage of those around here), one of the more thoughtful discussions I have seen around here lately. Here are my thoughts on some of these subjects.

University Classes vs. Other Classes

I think it is particularly interesting that loosebits and FIXXERVI6 took their OW in university courses. A college scuba class is really built up from the OW standards to meet the college's requirements to give credit. I has to be stretched out, or beefed up, or added to, whatever you want to call it, to make it last 15 weeks and have some content. A dive shop or instructor teaching a class outside a college starts with the standards and then asks how long it has to be to cover the material, get the students through the required material with level of competence or mastery the instructor is willing to sign off on, and keep from chasing the students away. At some point, longer means more costly and the time and the cost will keep students away. I wouldn't say either is better or worse, they are just different. But, that college class is almost certainly going to cover more stuff in more depth than other classes and if you did not come out of that class as a better-trained, more comfortable, more confident diver, I would be shocked. The college course ought to produce a diver with true "mastery" of the skills, while another course is going to produce a diver with "competence" rather than mastery. Coming from that kind of background, I can see why they take the position they are taking.

Choice

The free market is about as Darwinian as it gets - what is not successful does not survive. Guess what? Once upon a time, there was a choice: longer, more rigorous classes vs. shorter, less rigorous classes, just like people are asking for in this thread. Just listen to people talk about taking OW back in the day - SEAL training, right? Guess which one the students/customers chose? Shorter. It is a big commitment for somebody who's just getting into a sport/hobby/pastime. In college, you need the credit, you need the PE, it's scuba, or golf, or whatever. You are committed to filling that time and commitment space with something that gets you PE credit. Might as well be scuba. And what happens if you bail out? Take an extra course next semester, go to summer school, or put off graduation. The choices are completely different. If a significant enough number of people actually wanted to take a longer, more rigorous course, don't you think it would be offered by everybody who wanted to make a few bucks? There's no conspiracy out there to dumb down scuba - it's all a response to the market. And if you think fewer people in the market just means they won't go out of business, but will just make less money - think again. Scuba is not a big money-maker for anybody.

Length of Class = Level of Competence

OK, I know I said the longer college class ought to produce a better diver, but that does not mean there is a one-to-one relationship between the length of the class and the competence of the diver. There are several things here that have not really been discussed. How many people are in the class? One? Two? Eight? With a private class, one or two people, it can be possible to get the students through the skills in as little as three class/pool sessions. It's very, very difficult, and the students pretty much have to have prior diving experience from a resort course or be absolute naturals. Bump the number up to just three, and it is impossible. Four sessions is possible, if a challenge. Bump the number up to five, and a four-session class is impossible. Now you are looking at six or eight. And that is pretty much the way the LDS I teach at does it - in a "group" class, the expectation is six sessions. In a private, three or maybe four. By the way, I don't tell my students the class is any particular number of sessions - I tell them the course lasts until they can do the skills. I don't sign off until they can do them. I'll do a reasonable number of extra sessions for no extra fee. I think people are making a lot of assumptions about the training of people they see with poor skills. There are plenty of people with lots of training and lots of experience with poor skills. Some of it is people who don't maintain the skills they were originally taught. Another obvious factor is freqency of diving - the once-a-year vacation diver is never going to have the buoyancy skills of a more avid diver. It's one of the reasons I teach. It at least gets me to the pool and reviewing skills between trips so I can keep my own skills up.

Academics - Lecture and Home Study

There has been a lot of discussion here about lectures. That is another area where things have changed and time in class does not mean much. I have never had or given a lecture in a scuba class. The emphasis has been on home study. The books cover the stuff pretty well, and the accompanying videos cover a lot of stuff that probably used to be in lectures. Class time becomes a question of evaluating whether you learned what you were supposed to, and discussion. I think we can cover a lot more ground in the academics in fewer, shorter classes. This doesn't change the need for time in the water, but lecture time is really a waste.

The Effect of Experience

Everybody here is a more-commited-than-average diver, or at least more interested than average. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. Most of us have a fair amount of experience. We tend to look at everything through the lens of what we know now and to forget what it was like not to know anything. Maybe what the advocates of more extensive training are saying is: "Right, we do know more, and we should use our knowledge and experience to design a class that will benefit new divers." I can see the point in that, but if you give them the choice we were talking about before, they will pick the shorter, cheaper class nine times out of ten. I don't think the prospective divers will let us make the choice for them. Try to remember what it was like when you didn't know anything about this.

Permanent Certification?

Another possibility, and one that I think might be more workable and contribute more directly to raising the overall skill level of divers, is questioning permanent certification. Shouldn't your cert lapse if you don't dive, or take more training, or something? Shouldn't every dive operator require you to do a check-out dive, at least if you don't have very recent training or experience? Most people I know would get cheesed off or insulted if they were asked to do a check-out dive at the beginning of a week on vacation. If anybody asks me to do a check-out dive, I will go happily and I will have a lot more confidence in that dive operation. Even if we could make the longer class a reality (and it would, believe me, give instructors a LOT more opportunity to cover real buoyancy control and other critical skills), I don't think it would solve the problem without some kind of experience or continuing education requirement. And I don't think it's realistic to get people to sign up for that long course outside of a college environment.

Anyway, good to see people are thinking about it, and care about it.

 

[BiggDawg]

University Classes vs. Other Classes

A college scuba class is really built up from the OW standards to meet the college's requirements to give credit. I has to be stretched out, or beefed up, or added to, whatever you want to call it, to make it last 15 weeks and have some content.

It is happening in all areas of education. Does that mean that graduates are less prepared for graduation? Should we demand that every one get an advanced degree, or require 160 hours to graduate?

Actually, these days the length of a typical semester is more like 14 weeks. And what with Spring or Fall Break and Holidays, the classroom time is more like 13 weeks (assuming, of course, that they actually return mentally from the breaks).

This move to shortening is being driven by the students, their parents, and if applicable the state legislatures (the "customers" if you will). Funny, we don't see many students opting for programs with longer requirements. All we see are "How can I get out sooner."

There is a reason they call graduation "commencement" and not "conclusion." It is just the minimum standard as set by the certifying body to begin practicing (and, as I say, "begin learning.")

Talk about silting it up!

 

[subageezer]

I'm a novice diver recently certified so with some my opinion has little value. I chose a 4 week course of private instruction for my comfort. I took that instruction very seriously and since certifying have been diving every weekend. I don't feel the length of my instruction made me a better diver, rather it gave me more confidence to practice my skills in the real world. In fact, each dive since certification has been a learning experience which noticeably improves my skill.

A college level scuba course is, I'm certain, quit good. It is not, however, necessary to introduce a new diver to the sport. As others have stated, the course content is more a product of the university's need than any desire on their part to develope competent divers. For the record, I hold a masters degree so I am well versed in academia, and with all due respect the snobbery it can produce. While there may be a high attrition rate from diving, I am not yet convinced it is a direct responce to short certification courses.

I had the option to certify in one weekend (a dive instructor working with me) and simply felt uncomfortable. My goal wasn't to get a C Card as much as it was to learn to dive. In my humble opinion, some attrition comes from people having a less lofty goal. They wanted a c card so they could take a dive vacation. Once that was accomplished they had little interest. If they have problems finning, mask clearing and safty stops I suspect it was more correctly attributed to their lack of committment to the sport than inadequacy of training.

My final opinion, yes this is all opinion, is that the dive experience begins with OWC. That's why I am currently working with my instructor to set up my advanced course et al. That said, if you gained your OWC through a college course I would certainly hope that you didn't end your education there.

 

[divingjd]

It is happening in all areas of education. Does that mean that graduates are less prepared for graduation? Should we demand that every one get an advanced degree, or require 160 hours to graduate?

Actually, these days the length of a typical semester is more like 14 weeks. And what with Spring or Fall Break and Holidays, the classroom time is more like 13 weeks (assuming, of course, that they actually return mentally from the breaks).

This move to shortening is being driven by the students, their parents, and if applicable the state legislatures (the "customers" if you will). Funny, we don't see many students opting for programs with longer requirements. All we see are "How can I get out sooner."

There is a reason they call graduation "commencement" and not "conclusion." It is just the minimum standard as set by the certifying body to begin practicing (and, as I say, "begin learning.")

Talk about silting it up!

:lol:

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Thats not hard to teach in a standard OW course. In fact, its fairly easy to teach right along with all the other skills.

I call BS

if its fairly easy to teach how come I've never seen it? show me a photo of an standard open water diver doing that

 

[scubatn]

In my humble opinion, some attrition comes from people having a less lofty goal. They wanted a c card so they could take a dive vacation. Once that was accomplished they had little interest. If they have problems finning, mask clearing and safty stops I suspect it was more correctly attributed to their lack of committment to the sport than inadequacy of training.

I agree. With our classes we offer a practice session every Wendesday that students can come to before they do the certification dives. There is an instructor or assistant present in the pool. It is often difficult to get people to come to these even though they are free of charge. Most people are going to choose the quickest way.
IMO the c-card is kinda like a license to learn.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

If the course is longer, how will people know if they want to try?

Push more discover scuba classes, and still offer up the short classes, you lose nothing by offering both as long as you get the $$ to work out.

 

[Thalassamania]

Diving instruction when it began was 100 hours and 12 open water dives. (1953)

When I became an Instructor it had dropped to 40 hours and 5 open water dives (1976).

I tested a couse for DEMA in 1982 that was 18 hours and recommended against it (the PADI tester thought it was just peachy).

So now where back to the 18 hour couse again.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

I'm a novice diver recently certified so with some my opinion has little value. I chose a 4 week course of private instruction for my comfort. I took that instruction very seriously and since certifying have been diving every weekend. I don't feel the length of my instruction made me a better diver, rather it gave me more confidence to practice my skills in the real world. In fact, each dive since certification has been a learning experience which noticeably improves my skill.

A college level scuba course is, I'm certain, quit good. It is not, however, necessary to introduce a new diver to the sport. As others have stated, the course content is more a product of the university's need than any desire on their part to develope competent divers. For the record, I hold a masters degree so I am well versed in academia, and with all due respect the snobbery it can produce. While there may be a high attrition rate from diving, I am not yet convinced it is a direct responce to short certification courses.

I had the option to certify in one weekend (a dive instructor working with me) and simply felt uncomfortable. My goal wasn't to get a C Card as much as it was to learn to dive. In my humble opinion, some attrition comes from people having a less lofty goal. They wanted a c card so they could take a dive vacation. Once that was accomplished they had little interest. If they have problems finning, mask clearing and safty stops I suspect it was more correctly attributed to their lack of committment to the sport than inadequacy of training.

My final opinion, yes this is all opinion, is that the dive experience begins with OWC. That's why I am currently working with my instructor to set up my advanced course et al. That said, if you gained your OWC through a college course I would certainly hope that you didn't end your education there.

I'm all for private instruction, I have friends that have went that route and got a great class, 4 week private class would give you a lot of attention!

no I didn't end my education there and don't plan on ever ending it! The day I know it all is the day I better hang up the fins.

Well I see a lot of good arguments on both sides and I agree with a lot on both sides, *sigh* guess I just gotta sit back and chill on it, or just go diving, one post brought it to my attention that the possibility is its just my view point of being passionate about it, just bumbs me out is all

I can't get an image out of my head of something I saw, a diver walking on the bottom, seriously, foot over foot with that funny walk people have to do with fins on, he came up to a fan looking thing in the ocean (I dont' know the names of that stuff) and tried to step over it, he didn't clear it and it just exploded when he plowed into it, I couldn't watch any more, thats been a while since I saw that and I can't get the images out :-(

I couldn't help but think if he had more time to practice in an area he couldn't do damange in, that would have been prevented, I would still ike to see more pool time, even if its just another couple days of practice at a minimum