Tipping....how much do you tip?

[DennisS]

I can provide what I think is an interesting perspective, as someone who is a frequent charter passenger and now newly minted crew member and DM-to-be.

Newly minted, DM to be--DMs on boats are a fairly new requirement (Ok, last 20 years or so), recent liability suits have made them a necessity, their insurance makes them desirable to owners. Let the owner pay them, I don't tip the lifeguard at the pool where I do laps and I know they don't make much above minimum wage either.

My attitude may have been shaped by years of scientific diving, there are the current divers on the project, support personnel-filling tanks, loading gear on boats, running boats-who may or not be divers, and ships crew who get everyone to the dive site.

It's either your job to dive, support the diver or get everone to the site. Getting everyone to the site includes the ABs that paint the ship and stand watches, the cooks, the engineers that keep everthing from the A/C, hot water and engines working. Everyone works for a wage, usually a pretty good one. The chief engineer (head mechanic) makes in excess of $100k a year. None of these professionals would work for tips. The recreational dive industry redefines professional.

The tourist dive industry works on a whole different pay scale, one that I would never work for. Working for tips isn't a profession, unless you drive a cab, carry bags, tend bar or wait tables.

If they're dive professionals pay them. If they're step'n'fetchit, "put my fins on, take my fins off" service personnel, tip em and tip em well for serving you.

 

[in_cavediver]

That fact that you don't WANT to tip is not the issue I'm discussing. No one ever wants to pay a HIGHER price for something. Just please don't base the decision not to tip on the fact that "we don't do that where I come from" without realizing that you may be diminishing someone's ability to earn a living when you apply the local custom of "where you're from" to the socio-economic realities that exist in a foreign country when you travel there. (I thought only us Yanks did that?) Also note the significant regressive nature of the impact of this behavior, given the typical demographic and socio-economic status of most people who rely on tips for a significant portion of their income.

RJP,

I have only one answer to your statements. Its simple - Tips are optional. There is ZERO, NADA, NONE, ZIP obligation for anyone to tip.

Sorry, just the way it is.....

I'll also add that I hate the concept of tips. I want clear concise costs for things. Maybe its the engineer in me ( I do tip though when appropriate). But, what I hate even more, is people who expect tips and have the audacity to whine/bitch/complain if they don't get them or to the level they think they should. That's simple greed.

 

[RJP]

RJP,

I have only one answer to your statements. Its simple - Tips are optional. There is ZERO, NADA, NONE, ZIP obligation for anyone to tip.

Sorry, just the way it is.....

I've never said tips were not optional. They certainly are optional:

op·tion·al (adjective) - left to one's choice; not automatic

But in throwing out the word "obligation" you've really swerved into the very point I've been trying to make. Perhaps a closer look at the definition of that word will help clarify the debate here:

ob·li·ga·tion (noun) - something by which a person is bound to do certain things arising out of a sense of duty or as a result of custom or law; to place under a debt of gratitude for some benefit, favor, or service

So, it would appear that "by custom" as a "debt of gratitude for service" you do in fact have an "obligation" to tip. However, as you correctly point out, fulfilling that obligation is entirely optional. So when you say "I hate the concept of tips" what you are saying is "I hate the concept of expressing my gratitude."

You may choose to not fulfill your obligation to express your gratitude in the customary way, but the fact that it is not "automatic" does not mean that the obligation does not exist.

I know it sounds like a semantic argument, but "words mean things" and the fact that money is involved causes people's emotions to get in the way of comprehension.

I'll also add that I hate the concept of tips. I want clear concise costs for things. Maybe its the engineer in me ( I do tip though when appropriate). But, what I hate even more, is people who expect tips and have the audacity to whine/bitch/complain if they don't get them or to the level they think they should. That's simple greed.

Again, what you are effectively saying is "I hate people who perform a service for me without compensation and then expect me to be grateful."

Now really, who's being greedy?

Of course I realize that no one here believes me when I say my interest in the discussion is not about the money, but it's not. I just find the level of emotion and resentment expressed by the people who obviously "hate tips and the people who work for them" to be interesting. It's just so far out of proportion to the few dollars we're talking about that there's obviously something more going on. As someone who's spent twenty years - academically and professionally - studying the role of emotions in consumer decision making and cost/benefit choice modeling I find it fascinating.

I think the idea that you bring up about "uncertainty" regarding the overall cost is interesting, but most decision theorists will tell you that's not a big deal because all decisions involve uncertainty by definition. I think with the idea of tipping it has more to do with discomfort with the expectation of and expression of gratitude. There's a level of resentment and negative emotion there that clouds clear thought on the matter. How often do you hear "no one tips me when I do MY job well" from even someone who makes $200k a year and would be insulted by the offer of a tip. Obviously what they are saying is "people don't adequately express gratitude to me, so I will withhold expressing gratitude for others." This emotion then causes them to be unable to effectively process even a $1 economic decision.

On the other hand, there are those who claim that the decision is entirely financial with "I've already paid enough" but they are clearly not being honest with us, and probably not themselves either. If it was just "about the money" they wouldn't have the level of emotion and resentment that is obviously present here. Further, they would say "I don't want to spend any more money, but I always thank each crew member individually" instead of "I already paid enough and I resent some guy expecting me to subsidize his career choices."

Lastly, there are is a group for whom the decision truly should be completely financial: those for whom laying out the extra money would actually have a negative financial impact on them. (ie, people who don't have a lot of money.) Oddly, they tend to be as good or better tippers than most. This actually underscores the idea that there is an emotional component to the decision, since these folks actually feel they receive some emotional benefit of tipping that outweighs the negative financial impact.

 

[wardric]

8 pesos and a bottle of rum

 

[Stu S.]

In the relationship between dive master and diver, who is the superior and who is the subordinate?

 

[DennisS]

On the other hand, there are those who claim that the decision is entirely financial with "I've already paid enough" but they are clearly not being honest with us, and probably not themselves either. If it was just "about the money" they wouldn't have the level of emotion and resentment that is obviously present here. Further, they would say "I don't want to spend any more money, but I always thank each crew member individually" instead of "I already paid enough and I resent some guy expecting me to subsidize his career choices."

I guess the decision to tip comes down to whether you consider crew, professionals employed by the boat or service personnel hired to make your visit pleasant.

 

[RJP]

I guess the decision to tip comes down to whether you consider crew, professionals employed by the boat or service personnel hired to make your visit pleasant.

It's pretty clear from this thread that the vast majority of people understand the "reality" of how crew members are compensated. Whether you "consider" the compensation arrangement between the boat and the crew to be fair/adequate or not doesn't enter into it. Nor should it. Once you understand the reality of it the decision on whether you think the person deserves a tip or not, and if so how much, should be based entirely on the value you place on the service provided.

To be clear: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TIP. I'VE NEVER SAID YOU DO. I'm merely making sure people understand their own motivations for tipping or not, and what the ultimate impact of their logic would be if it were universally applied to the reality of the situation.

So, let's look at a typical example from a purely mathematical standpoint:

1. People understand the reality of the situation is that crew is not paid by the boat, they work for tips. Whether you think that is "right" or not doesn't matter - in this discussion or in reality. When you know this is the case, you must accept the baseline reality. That's just the way it is. (Hold on, I haven't said the reality is "you have to tip." Stay with me here. All I've said is "this is how the crew is compensated.")
   
2. Since you know that... you understand that the cost to you as a passenger of this 2-tank dive charter is $85 + whatever you think the crew deserves as a tip, including ZERO. (Don't tell me "I think $85 is enough for the trip" as I've just said that is an option - you determine the cost. If at the end of the trip you want the cost to be $85 + 0, that's fine. But stay with me...)
   
3. As a passenger on the trip, you will receive the benefit of some level of service provided by the crew. There is no diver who receives ZERO service from the crew. You may not need your "hand held" or your gear set up, but you do need the boat cleaned, fueled, geared up and ready to go when you get there. There's a certain baseline level of service that even the most autonomous diver receives from the crew. Even if it's making sure some diver who does need his hand held doesn't impact your ability to enjoy the trip. At a minimum, you benefit from the crew's presence when the captain yells "cast off" because without the crew the boat would never leave the dock at that point. (Hang on, I still haven't said you have to tip, or how much. Just making sure there's an understanding that you have personally received some benefit from the crew's service.)
   
4. Since #1 and #3 above are true... you know that that the crew has not yet been compensated to render services from which you have benefited. Further...
   
5. Since #1 and #2 above are true... you know that that you have not yet paid for any of the services that the crew has provided and from which you have received some level of benefit.
   
6. Accordingly, at the end of the trip...you understand that you are able to decide whether the crew should be compensated for providing a service from which you have received some level of benefit. (Remember, given the reality of the situation, the "fairness" of the compensation arrangement between boat and crew doesn't matter.)
   

So, as mentioned above, the passenger at their sole discretion needs to weigh the value of the service from which they've received some benefit and determine what compensation the crew receives. You are free to TIP or to NOT TIP for whatever reason you may choose. (Minimizing or even eliminating the tip in response to poor service is always fair game, but is a different issue.)

Weigh the service rendered and compensate accordingly.

However, giving what you know to be true, if you decide to tip ZERO you just need to understand that you are telling the crew "I expect you to provide me a service without being paid."

At that point you need to look into your own heart, understand what your motivations are, and determine whether that makes you or the crew member the one with "a hand out" and an expectation of getting "something for nothing."

Beyond that, there's the simple and obvious economic impact of what would happen if your desire to not tip and have the boat and the crew determine how much the crew is paid: You will pay more than you are paying now for the trip.

Right now you can pay "$85 + whatever you want" including ZERO for the trip. You have the freedom to decide what the final amount is.

If tipping were eliminated the boat would pay the crew. (The crew is willing to risk working for free and work hard to earn something, but a guarantee of no pay is a different story.) Assuming for discussion that fair market value of compensation for the crew is equal to what they would receive from an average tip of $10 per passenger on a full boat, that's what the crew would be paid by the boat. But the boat's not always full. And there are other costs associated with simply processing the payment to the crew - time to process payroll, bank fees, accounting costs, etc. As a business/employee relationship there are new liabilities, tax implications, etc. To cover all these costs, the boat will need to collect more that $10 from each passenger in order to pay the crew fair market value. A lot more. Probably twice as much.

So, your emotions have caused you to decide that in order to avoid the financial implications of the custom of slipping a guy $10 as you get off the boat you'd rather put in place a solution that is likely to cost you $20.

Given the facts, even the most callous, bitter, resentful people should be gladly giving out "average" tips since the fact is it's actually cheaper for them than the alternative.

 

[caymaniac]

I've never said tips were not optional.

No, but YOU have certainly implied that tips are not optional, as in everyone must tip. Your theories and disscussions lead anyone to believe you have something against anyone who does not agree with your (flawed) thinking.
You are trying to logically reason why everyone should tip, no matter to you - that they come from a different culture or they just plain don't agree with you.
Get off your high horse and realize that not everyone thinks like you or wants to think like you. Instead of insulting everyone, you just ram your ideas done their throat.
If you can't be kind to people on this site, please leave. If you're not leave then quit trying to get everyone to believe your faulty logic.

 

[almitywife]

........

.... There is no diver who receives ZERO service from the crew. You may not need your "hand held" or your gear set up, but you do need the boat cleaned, fueled, geared up and ready to go when you get there.............

ummmm - isnt that what im paying for when i book the trip???

 

[da-gd]

Do I deserve a tip for reading through 18 pages of discussion that will not change either side's mind? I don't deserve one...I skimmed!