Kamchatka
Contributor
I agree with many, if not most, of RJP’s comments here. (And thanks for the Funk & Wagnall tour.)
1. "...tips...certainly are optional...." - True
2. "obqliqgaqtion (noun) - something by which a person is bound to do certain things arising out of a sense of duty or as a result of custom or law; to place under a debt of gratitude for some benefit, favor, or service" - True. Therefore, no benefit, favor, or service = no obqliqgaqtion (noun) = no tip. Re custom: your customs are not, necessarily, my customs. Is Sgt. Mary Jones, serving in Iraq, under an obqliqgaqtion (noun) to wear a Burka as is customary for the indigenous females? Re law: Why, yes, of course. If the law says, e.g. in GCM, Drive On The Left, you’re obligated to do so. If a merchant is selling petrol for $1.29/litre you’re required to pay that price for your purchase. If the dive op charges $85 for the trip you’re obligated to pay that (unless you’re crew and then you may get to go and dive for free).
3. "So, it would appear that "by custom" as a "debt of gratitude for service" you do in fact have an "obligation" to tip." If you do, in fact, get a service for which you’ve not previously paid then a very good case can be made for tipping. " However, as you correctly point out, fulfilling that obligation is entirely optional. So when you say "I hate the concept of tips" what you are saying is "I hate the concept of expressing my gratitude." -Non sequitur. "I hate the concept of tipping" means "I hate the concept of tipping." A reasonable person, given these available facts, cannot conclude that it means anything else. If the person who hates the concept of tipping goes to the crew after the dive and gives each one a hearty handclasp and heartfelt "Tkank you for all you’ve done" that negates the premise of "I hate the concept of expressing my gratitude."
4. "You may choose to not fulfill your obligation to express your gratitude in the customary way, but the fact that it is not "automatic" does not mean that the obligation does not exist." Too true. However, the mere fact that a dive trip took place does not "automatically" mean an obligation to tip, by any logical definition, was created.
5. "I know it sounds like a semantic argument, but "words mean things" and the fact that money is involved causes people's emotions to get in the way of comprehension." This too is true. It also causes some people manipulate those words using skewed logic to support an otherwise unsupportable position.
6. "Again, what you are effectively saying is "I hate people who perform a service for me without compensation and then expect me to be grateful."" Another non sequitur. See 3, above.
7. "Of course I realize that no one here believes me when I say my interest in the discussion is not about the money, but it's not. I just find the level of emotion and resentment expressed by the people who obviously "hate tips and the people who work for them" to be interesting. It's just so far out of proportion to the few dollars we're talking about that there's obviously something more going on. As someone who's spent twenty years - academically and professionally - studying the role of emotions in consumer decision making and cost/benefit choice modeling I find it fascinating." I do believe you about it not being about the money for you. I think you (and I and the pig rolling in the mud) like the fight. However, I don’t agree with your all-encompassing "hate the people who work for (tips)" statement. It’s yet another non sequitur. I like some of the crew members I’ve come to know over the years. I’ve driven some of them to and from the boat on occasion. (No, they didn’t tip me.) And gotten calls from them-"Hey, Kam. Come on out with us tomorrow. The wx is great and we’ve got a good group going."
8. "I think the idea that you bring up about "uncertainty" regarding the overall cost is interesting, but most decision theorists will tell you that's not a big deal because all decisions involve uncertainty by definition. I think with the idea of tipping it has more to do with discomfort with the expectation of and expression of gratitude. There's a level of resentment and negative emotion there that clouds clear thought on the matter." (Wow, that’s too cerebral for an unsophisticated pastoral type such as me.) "How often do you hear "no one tips me when I do MY job well" from even someone who makes $200k a year and would be insulted by the offer of a tip. Obviously what they are saying is "people don't adequately express gratitude to me, so I will withhold expressing gratitude for others." (Well, they may be saying that but all I see is them just using some of that skewed logic we’ve been subjected to so much in this thread.) This emotion then causes them to be unable to effectively process even a $1 economic decision." Uh...OK.
9. "On the other hand, there are those who claim that the decision is entirely financial with "I've already paid enough" but they are clearly not being honest with us, and probably not themselves either (Re "clearly not being honest"- Totally unsupported conclusion and, need I repeat, another non sequitur, clearly) If it was just "about the money" they wouldn't have the level of emotion and resentment that is obviously present here. Further, they would say "I don't want to spend any more money, but I always thank each crew member individually" instead of "I already paid enough and I resent some guy expecting me to subsidize his career choices." We could probably debate endlessly whether there really is resentment present or an honest belief that you’re neither responsible for or interested in another’s financial success or failure.
10. "Lastly, there are is a group for whom the decision truly should be completely financial: those for whom laying out the extra money would actually have a negative financial impact on them. (ie, people who don't have a lot of money.)" I would think the responsible thing to do would be for them to look out for Number One. And, I’m not saying this in the vein of ‘Screw You!’ but rather, "I’m making the conscious decision to go on the dive even though I can’t afford to tip. I don’t particularly like this decision but, sorry, I really wanna dive!’ "Oddly, they tend to be as good or better tippers than most. This actually underscores the idea that there is an emotional component to the decision, since these folks actually feel they receive some emotional benefit of tipping" (I did not know that. I’d be interested in perusing the study that reached that conclusion?) "that outweighs the negative financial impact.[/quote]
There is an argument that you will receive some level of service from the crew on every trip, claiming things such as boat refueling, cleaning, preparation, spring maintenance, etc., are this "service." The claim that this is an above and beyond duty is false. Actually that is a "service" the boat owner gets from his crew to enable him to do business. Whether the boat owner chooses to pay for it (tip his helpers?) or not is his choice. The charter fee is what the diver pays to get on a (serviceable) boat and be transported to the dive site and returned to the dock safely.
(Note: The boldface type remarks are my responses to RJP’s comments.)
1. "...tips...certainly are optional...." - True
2. "obqliqgaqtion (noun) - something by which a person is bound to do certain things arising out of a sense of duty or as a result of custom or law; to place under a debt of gratitude for some benefit, favor, or service" - True. Therefore, no benefit, favor, or service = no obqliqgaqtion (noun) = no tip. Re custom: your customs are not, necessarily, my customs. Is Sgt. Mary Jones, serving in Iraq, under an obqliqgaqtion (noun) to wear a Burka as is customary for the indigenous females? Re law: Why, yes, of course. If the law says, e.g. in GCM, Drive On The Left, you’re obligated to do so. If a merchant is selling petrol for $1.29/litre you’re required to pay that price for your purchase. If the dive op charges $85 for the trip you’re obligated to pay that (unless you’re crew and then you may get to go and dive for free).
3. "So, it would appear that "by custom" as a "debt of gratitude for service" you do in fact have an "obligation" to tip." If you do, in fact, get a service for which you’ve not previously paid then a very good case can be made for tipping. " However, as you correctly point out, fulfilling that obligation is entirely optional. So when you say "I hate the concept of tips" what you are saying is "I hate the concept of expressing my gratitude." -Non sequitur. "I hate the concept of tipping" means "I hate the concept of tipping." A reasonable person, given these available facts, cannot conclude that it means anything else. If the person who hates the concept of tipping goes to the crew after the dive and gives each one a hearty handclasp and heartfelt "Tkank you for all you’ve done" that negates the premise of "I hate the concept of expressing my gratitude."
4. "You may choose to not fulfill your obligation to express your gratitude in the customary way, but the fact that it is not "automatic" does not mean that the obligation does not exist." Too true. However, the mere fact that a dive trip took place does not "automatically" mean an obligation to tip, by any logical definition, was created.
5. "I know it sounds like a semantic argument, but "words mean things" and the fact that money is involved causes people's emotions to get in the way of comprehension." This too is true. It also causes some people manipulate those words using skewed logic to support an otherwise unsupportable position.
6. "Again, what you are effectively saying is "I hate people who perform a service for me without compensation and then expect me to be grateful."" Another non sequitur. See 3, above.
7. "Of course I realize that no one here believes me when I say my interest in the discussion is not about the money, but it's not. I just find the level of emotion and resentment expressed by the people who obviously "hate tips and the people who work for them" to be interesting. It's just so far out of proportion to the few dollars we're talking about that there's obviously something more going on. As someone who's spent twenty years - academically and professionally - studying the role of emotions in consumer decision making and cost/benefit choice modeling I find it fascinating." I do believe you about it not being about the money for you. I think you (and I and the pig rolling in the mud) like the fight. However, I don’t agree with your all-encompassing "hate the people who work for (tips)" statement. It’s yet another non sequitur. I like some of the crew members I’ve come to know over the years. I’ve driven some of them to and from the boat on occasion. (No, they didn’t tip me.) And gotten calls from them-"Hey, Kam. Come on out with us tomorrow. The wx is great and we’ve got a good group going."
8. "I think the idea that you bring up about "uncertainty" regarding the overall cost is interesting, but most decision theorists will tell you that's not a big deal because all decisions involve uncertainty by definition. I think with the idea of tipping it has more to do with discomfort with the expectation of and expression of gratitude. There's a level of resentment and negative emotion there that clouds clear thought on the matter." (Wow, that’s too cerebral for an unsophisticated pastoral type such as me.) "How often do you hear "no one tips me when I do MY job well" from even someone who makes $200k a year and would be insulted by the offer of a tip. Obviously what they are saying is "people don't adequately express gratitude to me, so I will withhold expressing gratitude for others." (Well, they may be saying that but all I see is them just using some of that skewed logic we’ve been subjected to so much in this thread.) This emotion then causes them to be unable to effectively process even a $1 economic decision." Uh...OK.
9. "On the other hand, there are those who claim that the decision is entirely financial with "I've already paid enough" but they are clearly not being honest with us, and probably not themselves either (Re "clearly not being honest"- Totally unsupported conclusion and, need I repeat, another non sequitur, clearly) If it was just "about the money" they wouldn't have the level of emotion and resentment that is obviously present here. Further, they would say "I don't want to spend any more money, but I always thank each crew member individually" instead of "I already paid enough and I resent some guy expecting me to subsidize his career choices." We could probably debate endlessly whether there really is resentment present or an honest belief that you’re neither responsible for or interested in another’s financial success or failure.
10. "Lastly, there are is a group for whom the decision truly should be completely financial: those for whom laying out the extra money would actually have a negative financial impact on them. (ie, people who don't have a lot of money.)" I would think the responsible thing to do would be for them to look out for Number One. And, I’m not saying this in the vein of ‘Screw You!’ but rather, "I’m making the conscious decision to go on the dive even though I can’t afford to tip. I don’t particularly like this decision but, sorry, I really wanna dive!’ "Oddly, they tend to be as good or better tippers than most. This actually underscores the idea that there is an emotional component to the decision, since these folks actually feel they receive some emotional benefit of tipping" (I did not know that. I’d be interested in perusing the study that reached that conclusion?) "that outweighs the negative financial impact.[/quote]
There is an argument that you will receive some level of service from the crew on every trip, claiming things such as boat refueling, cleaning, preparation, spring maintenance, etc., are this "service." The claim that this is an above and beyond duty is false. Actually that is a "service" the boat owner gets from his crew to enable him to do business. Whether the boat owner chooses to pay for it (tip his helpers?) or not is his choice. The charter fee is what the diver pays to get on a (serviceable) boat and be transported to the dive site and returned to the dock safely.
(Note: The boldface type remarks are my responses to RJP’s comments.)
