AquaSafari

[Mawg]

That makes sense and clears up just what is defined as the "navigational channel". But that means that the navigational channel includes most (maybe all) dive sites. Some might be assuming that the the dive sites and the navigational channel are somwewhat seperated in some way.

Paradise is not as clear cut as the other reefs, since you can feasibly reach it from shore. However, the navigtional channel does include that area between the reef and the first drop off...driving home again why a local guide is required...because they KNOW this. The navigational channel also includes the area between the shore and the reef at other dive sites. The navigational channel is not restricted to the open water on the west side of the reefs.

If Tek was able to kick down deeper to get away from the boat as he claims, then he wasn't on the shelf as he claims, as it's only about 8 to 10 feet deep up on that shelf that extends out from the shore. That means that the boat was in the right place. Based on everything I've read and heard (from speaking with Bill)..the boat was right on the edge of that navigational channel dropping students and the instructor off so they could swim over to the shallow shelf for their Discover Course.

That is correct. I would say the incident happened more like 30-40 meters from shore, though.

If you don't have Google Earth, you can see the same thing by going to maps.google.com and zooming in on Cozumel's west shore.

If you have access to gloogle earth, you might want to take a look at the site under discussion. It shows up quite clearly. It looks to me like the distance from the shore to the first dropoff (blue-green waters) is about 50 meters. You can see a number of boats along that the line of that first dropoff. Then it looks like about another 150 meter of light blue water to the coral reef which show up as a dark strip. Looks like one of the Fury Cats sitting there about 400 meters NE of the marina entrance about 100 meters off shore. Then it is another 150+ meters of blue water from the coral to the deep dropoff and the deep dark waters where traveling boats tend to navigate. You can see one larger boat offshore from the catemeran traveling SW at a good speed. TNDs map has been removed but, if I recall correctly, he went out no further than the coral strip 200 meters from shore and the incident looked like it happened within 100 meterws of shore and somewhat NE of the marina entrance.

Too bad the southern reefs are not a clear as paradise in these satelite images.

Thanks

BTW, if you really want to see good resolution tak a look at the coutyard inside the inner ring of the pentagon - folks sitting on the benches. Or, better yet, go to Marble Arch in London and see the couple walking about 60 meters SSE of the arch. Hopefully better shots of Cozumel will become available.

Is the channel between the reef and shore, or seaward of the reef?

Mago and Pedro say that within 25 meters of a dive flag, they are required to maintain idling speed (no wake). This is for the purpose of following & picking up the divers. Dive flags/buoys always have the "right of way."

When navigating the channel at full speed, the distance is 50 meters.

From my own experience, it is not at all uncommon for a boat out over the reef to have a surface marker pulled under the boat as the divers are being pulled by the current, but typically this happens when a boat is sitting idle. The difference is that the boats stay as close to their divers as they can...or at least ahead of their path...and the divers are either still at depth or at the safety stop. Regardless, the captains who are close to a buoy also see the bubbles and can actually see the divers below when they are on top of them due to the clarity of the water. This doesn't alarm me or cause me concern.

Those of you who dive here frequently may have also noticed that the DM's always surface over the reef or just to the inside of the reef. This is to stay out of the navigational channel. This also applies at paradise where this incident occurred.

If I was at my safety stop, over the reef (out of the channel) and a boat ran over my buoy at full speed...that would be reason to be concerned.

The point here is that it is ALSO OUR RESPONSIBILITY AS DIVERS to STAY OUT of the navigational channels. If we choose to be in this zone, then we must also accept some responsibility.

Gary, I do the same thing you do...I wait until everyone has gotten on the boat (when possible) and then surface...in the meantime, hanging at 10 to 15 feet).

The problem with that theory is you then believe that what we have here is a group of divers towing a recognised marker in an area frequented by both boats and divers and the boat crew (captain, mate, and one or two Dms) who all missed the marker and ran over the diver's location without even knowing divers were in the area. I'd prefer to hope that at least one of them saw the marker (and the divers and their bubbles) and determined that there was no cause for alarm. That scenario does not scare me as much. But it does still leave the question that has been asked by a few posters now as to what the requirements are for boats honoring dive markers in Cozumel in terms of distance and speed. Perhaps the requirement is as simple as be aware of their presense and don't hit anybody. If that were the case, then all we really have here is a misunderstanding that could have been handled a bit better. No harm, no foul.

I knew there was a reason I always like to surface either in a protected area or under the DM after I watch him/her on the surface for a bit. Whenever I can, I like to stay down at 3 meters until the boat arrives, the prop(s) stop, and other divers start boarding.

I never said I was on the shelf! I was NEAR the edge. (And you give ME a hard time about "selective reading"?)

Let me find the post....ah yes....here it is....





A question for you, Christi: Let's say I took a local guide with me to do a shore dive there. How would he/she/you get out to the reef without swimming under the "navigational channel"?

I thought covering your mouth when you yawned was just good manners.:11doh:

Enough Already!

 

[Aqua Safari]

Allow me to inform everyone that I have an appointment with the Cozumel Harbormaster on Wednesday the 23rd at 11 AM to discuss divebuoys and boats. Jonathan and friends are invited. I would really like to have Jonathan's synopsis by then to take to the harbormaster.

Christi's 25 meters works for me, but let's see if the National Maritime Law has something for us. Our law may not, because it deals almost exclusively with ocean going vessels.

The U.S. and perhaps Canada as well are most exceptional for the size of the recreational boating industry. No other country in the world has a marine industry remotely as large. They have had to legislate for small boats because of the abundance, to try and keep it safe, and to help and assign responsibility when accidents and conflicts occur. I was amazed at the post where a man said his 14 year old daughter had taken a course in school. WOW

The Harbormaster, better than anyone, can find any legislation that might be applicable, and I do indeed believe it's time for a circular to all the boats in this regard.

Regarding the question as to whether Chivo saw the flag or not; Jonathan, you were next to him for a couple of hours at breakfast last Monday, but if that did not get discussed through Ricardo specifically while I was perhaps chatting with Morgan, we can ask him point blank when we hand him your synopsis.

 

[dave4868]

Enough Already!

You must be the guy who talks all through the movie....

This discussion has been fascinating and instructive because the principal parties have made such a serious and honest effort to sort out the issues.

They all deserve respect, IMHO, so shhh! Please....

Dave C

 

[jayjoans]

Gary, I do the same thing you do...I wait until everyone has gotten on the boat (when possible) and then surface...in the meantime, hanging at 10 to 15 feet).

yeah, well you don't dive with Gordo. If I did that all the brownies would be gone..

 

[ReefHound]

Allow me to inform everyone that I have an appointment with the Cozumel Harbormaster on Wednesday the 23rd at 11 AM to discuss divebuoys and boats. Jonathan and friends are invited. I would really like to have Jonathan's synopsis by then to take to the harbormaster.

What confuses me is why you are so intent on getting Tek's written synopsis when he has outlined his version of the events already here. Just print the relevant posts. You've been working in the industry 30 years. If your influence isn't enough to get this circular issued then I highly doubt the harbor master is going to be motivated by the word of an 18 yr old American kid.

Seems to me you should be more focused on soliciting Christi and other dive op owners to attend your harbor master meeting. You folks are the people this mostly affects. You are the people that will be there years from now when Tek is long gone.

I hate to be suspicious but given your previous mention of the penal system and lack of 1st Amendment in Mexico, if I was Tek then no way would I ever hand over a written and signed statement or accompany you to see the harbor master (who has powers of arrest, verdad?). And no amount of reassurances would ever change my mind. What was said cannot be unsaid. It may have been nothing more than loose talk or a bad joke but there would always be an element of doubt. But that's just me.

 

[DandyDon]

Good point Reefhound. I'm mostly just reading along here, but I think you have a good idea...

 

[Aqua Safari]

If I had some devious legal stragem up my sleeve for revenge against Mr. Knight, you could then start a new thread that could go into thousands of posts and have a blast with it, Reefhound.
But I've learned that if you are talking about a person you can see and appreciate, the message sinks in and you can get something done; much more so than just talk and papers.

You live in the world's most litigious society, so I can appreciate your suspicion or paranoia;
but I assure you and Mr. Knight that is not the case here.

I need a tourist whom no one would want to hurt to put a face on this for 15 minutes and help motivate the issue. Perhaps Morgan? Anyone up for a cross cultural experience?

Like one person posted, this should be required reading for sociology class...

 

[Mawg]

You must be the guy who talks all through the movie....

This discussion has been fascinating and instructive because the principal parties have made such a serious and honest effort to sort out the issues.

They all deserve respect, IMHO, so shhh! Please....

Dave C

I thought covering your mouth when you yawned was just good manners.:11doh:

Relax, for soon Oprah will be on and once again your lives will have meaning.

 

[Geoff_H]

Still no dialogue.... aiya! Come on AS and teknitroxdiver.

 

[Mawg]

Still no dialogue.... aiya! Come on AS and teknitroxdiver.

What happened to your prior quote,the one that I was just reading?