Does PADI frown on BP/W over "regular" bc?

[jon m]

to the OP-
as a new(er) diver i would suggest trying different rigs (BP/W and BC) before buying.
i had the good fortune of being able to try some "top end" (read VERY expensive) BC's during certification.tons of "doo dads" on them... after much deliberation i ended up buying a BP/w with a stainless steel plate.(Tobin at DSS, he's on these boards) i went BP because i MIGHT want to go tech someday. i have used it in cold and warm waters (45F-88F), open water and caverns (the DM's in the cenotes loved it!) the only adjustment being how much weight i used. you almost forget you are wearing it.it travels well, being pretty flat. and there is almost nothing on it to break. (by the way- it does not require and extra parts to use a single tank).
it is great! let's just say this- there are lots of folks on these boards who have switched from BC to BP. not nearly as many have switched from BP to BC...

 

[Nick_W]

to the OP-
as a new(er) diver i would suggest trying different rigs (BP/W and BC) before buying.
i had the good fortune of being able to try some "top end" (read VERY expensive) BC's during certification.tons of "doo dads" on them... after much deliberation i ended up buying a BP/w with a stainless steel plate.(Tobin at DSS, he's on these boards) i went BP because i MIGHT want to go tech someday. i have used it in cold and warm waters (45F-88F), open water and caverns (the DM's in the cenotes loved it!) the only adjustment being how much weight i used. you almost forget you are wearing it.it travels well, being pretty flat. and there is almost nothing on it to break. (by the way- it does not require and extra parts to use a single tank).
it is great! let's just say this- there are lots of folks on these boards who have switched from BC to BP. not nearly as many have switched from BP to BC...

To the part I bolded I will say, to be fair, that this isn't a really accurate statement for a lot of reasons. People don't often start with a BP/W at all, let alone start on a BP/W and then switch to a BC. People switch to a BP/W for many reasons, one of those reasons is because a BP/W better serves their needs for diving doubles, drysuit diving, whatever the case may be, so of course they aren't going to switch back. On top of that, you should keep in mind that these boards are not, by any means, an accurate sampling of the diving public.

 

[GFOX]

So, you argue that we should keep it as simple as possible for new students, but giving them several places from which they can dump air isn't making things more complicated?

I still have not seen a single compelling arguement as to why a BP/W should not be used in a basic OW course.

Once again, I'll repeat what I said in my orginal post, or at least paraphrase it: I've been told by an instructor at my local LDS that they prefer new divers not use BP/W's, or Back inflate BC's, because of issues with the diver face being pushed into the water when the wing is over inflated. Have I ever encountered this issue? No, but that's what I've been told. Next time I have the opportunity, I'll find out for myself. There's also no question that LDS's prefer to promote what they sell.

Yes, I recommend keeping it simple, so that there is no task overloading and so that new divers don't become overwhelmed, but recommend a BC that has several places to dump air from...specifically on the front of the BC. I'm of the opinion that a front dump valve is easier to operate for a new diver. Over time aything can be learned to the point of second nature, including dumping air from your left butt cheek.

As to the argument that multiple dump valves create, multiple failure points...okay, but I still feel that the pros outweigh the cons for new divers on this issue. Once again, I don't think new divers should be overwhelmed. Should new recreational divers carry a second mask, three lights, wet notes, ect., ect.? Maybe this discussion would be more appropriate at DECOSTOP.

Your college, LDS, best friends-brothers-sisters-next door neighbor teaches Open Water diving using BP/W's...great. You prefer diving with a BP/W over a jacket style BC...great. Does diving with a BP/W make you sexy...hell yes. A better diver...of course. All this does not change my opinion that for a new diver who has been rushed thru an OW class (what used to be taught in weeks is now taught in days) is better off in a jacket style BC.

It would be interesting to see the data on surface drownings of new divers using BP/W's versus jacket style BC's. If that data existed you might then have a compelling argument for why BP/W's should not be used in a basic OW course. Until then it is what it is.

BTW, I dive a BP/W and a jacket style BC, and am of the opinion that there is a time and place for everything. If your Open Water class is involved enough to make you comfortable and competant diving a BP/W...great. I just happen to feel that it takes a little more training to safely dive a BP/W versus a jacket style BC for a new diver.

 

[Nick_W]

Once again, I'll repeat what I said in my orginal post, or at least paraphrase it: I've been told by an instructor at my local LDS that they prefer new divers not use BP/W's, or Back inflate BC's, because of issues with the diver face being pushed into the water when the wing is over inflated. Have I ever encountered this issue? No, but that's what I've been told. Next time I have the opportunity, I'll find out for myself. There's also no question that LDS's prefer to promote what they sell.

Most likely that instructor was telling yout hat because that's the line he was given by the LDS he works for. I've never, ever had a problem with a bak inflate or BP/W pushing my face in the water except for once when, just for fun, I overinflated the heck out of a 60 pound wing to use as a "raft" (yes, I was bored). Now that pushed my face in the water. But the simple solution is don't do that.

Yes, I recommend keeping it simple, so that there is no task overloading and so that new divers don't become overwhelmed, but recommend a BC that has several places to dump air from...specifically on the front of the BC. I'm of the opinion that a front dump valve is easier to operate for a new diver. Over time aything can be learned to the point of second nature, including dumping air from your left butt cheek.

What is more simple than a BP/W with a hog-harness? As for the location of where you're dumping air. What BC has a a dump valve on the front? As far as I know, they all have them on the shoulders, the lower back or on the oral inflator. Which is the same as any wings I've seen.

As to the argument that multiple dump valves create, multiple failure points...okay, but I still feel that the pros outweigh the cons for new divers on this issue. Once again, I don't think new divers should be overwhelmed. Should new recreational divers carry a second mask, three lights, wet notes, ect., ect.? Maybe this discussion would be more appropriate at DECOSTOP.

No, they shouldn't. But we're not talking about all that other gaer and trust me, the more crap you put on a BC (dump valves included) the more stuff students are going to break.

Your college, LDS, best friends-brothers-sisters-next door neighbor teaches Open Water diving using BP/W's...great. You prefer diving with a BP/W over a jacket style BC...great. Does diving with a BP/W make you sexy...hell yes. A better diver...of course. All this does not change my opinion that for a new diver who has been rushed thru an OW class (what used to be taught in weeks is now taught in days) is better off in a jacket style BC.

I teach open water and am about to start using BP/Ws. Just so we're clear that I'm not talking about my uncle's best friend's sister's college boyfriend's class. While I don't really make it a habit of rushing any student through a course, the BP/W is actually a lot easier to teach someone in than a jacket style BC. A BP/W can easily be something that is one size fits most, as opposed to jacket style BCs which are one size fits on guy really well and the next guy not so much. When a student breaks something, I replace what they broke rather than the entire system. There are fewer moving parts, fewer adjustments to be made, I could really go on and on for you if you'd like.

It would be interesting to see the data on surface drownings of new divers using BP/W's versus jacket style BC's. If that data existed you might then have a compelling argument for why BP/W's should not be used in a basic OW course. Until then it is what it is.

I doubt anyone who would drown because they over inflated their wing, pushed their face into the water, and then failed to recognize the problem and fix it would be smarte enough to have even managed to have set up their gear in the first place. So I'm not too worried about it.

BTW, I dive a BP/W and a jacket style BC, and am of the opinion that there is a time and place for everything. If your Open Water class is involved enough to make you comfortable and competant diving a BP/W...great. I just happen to feel that it takes a little more training to safely dive a BP/W versus a jacket style BC for a new diver.

Like I said, its actually easier when they're wearing a back inflate or a BP/W.

 

[DBailey]

As vast majority of the students that come through our shop don't ever buy gear. They are getting certified for that family vacation, spring break, honeymoon, etc. It makes perfect sense to have them wear a jacket BC since an overwhelming amount of the rentals at resorts are jacket BC.

I also think a lot of stundets can relate how to wear a jacket BC and that a BP/W might be confusing at first. Once explained and on, I don't consider either one to be better or worse than the other.

 

[GFOX]

Most likely that instructor was telling yout hat because that's the line he was given by the LDS he works for. I've never, ever had a problem with a bak inflate or BP/W pushing my face in the water except for once when, just for fun, I overinflated the heck out of a 60 pound wing to use as a "raft" (yes, I was bored). Now that pushed my face in the water. But the simple solution is don't do that.

I too have never experienced having my face pushed into the water by my BP/W. I only mentioned it because it was one of the reasons given to me as to why my LDS doesn't use them for OW class. Does that make it factual, obviously not, but she also mentioned that she has assisted multiple BP/W divers in distress because of this problem.

What is more simple than a BP/W with a hog-harness? As for the location of where you're dumping air. What BC has a a dump valve on the front? As far as I know, they all have them on the shoulders, the lower back or on the oral inflator. Which is the same as any wings I've seen.

My apologies for not being more specific, yes, you're quite right, the dump valve I was thinking of is on the shoulder, but the pull for it is routed on the front of the BC.

I teach open water and am about to start using BP/Ws. Just so we're clear that I'm not talking about my uncle's best friend's sister's college boyfriend's class. While I don't really make it a habit of rushing any student through a course, the BP/W is actually a lot easier to teach someone in than a jacket style BC. A BP/W can easily be something that is one size fits most, as opposed to jacket style BCs which are one size fits on guy really well and the next guy not so much. When a student breaks something, I replace what they broke rather than the entire system. There are fewer moving parts, fewer adjustments to be made, I could really go on and on for you if you'd like.

I'm curious as to how long your class is, and how much time will be spent in a pool, as well as the amount of time spent in open water? As for fit, I'm aware of the adjustability of BP/W's, but find jacket style BC's more user friendly to adjust, even if you do need several different sizes. I don't doubt that replacing parts on a modular BP/W is easier, than replacing parts on an integrated BC, and don't have nearly enough experience to argue the point, but am curious as to what parts normally break on a jacket style BC?

I doubt anyone who would drown because they over inflated their wing, pushed their face into the water, and then failed to recognize the problem and fix it would be smarte enough to have even managed to have set up their gear in the first place. So I'm not too worried about it.

Never doubt people's stupidity. For proof of it, their stupidity, just do a Google search on the Darwin awards, or speak to people who have been instructing for quite some time. In addition, it's not only stupidity I worry about, but panic and being overwhelmed. It only takes a minute of stupidity to suffer a lifetime of death.

 

[Nick_W]

I too have never experienced having my face pushed into the water by my BP/W. I only mentioned it because it was one of the reasons given to me as to why my LDS doesn't use them for OW class. Does that make it factual, obviously not, but she also mentioned that she has assisted multiple BP/W divers in distress because of this problem.

The pushing your face into the water thing is trotted out by every instructor and salesman who is trying to sell someone a jacke style BC. Yes, it can happen, but you've really got to work at it.

My apologies for not being more specific, yes, you're quite right, the dump valve I was thinking of is on the shoulder, but the pull for it is routed on the front of the BC.

And wings are no different in this regard. Actually, if you get one that has the single, center mounted dump valve, it actually makes life a little easier.

I'm curious as to how long your class is, and how much time will be spent in a pool, as well as the amount of time spent in open water? As for fit, I'm aware of the adjustability of BP/W's, but find jacket style BC's more user friendly to adjust, even if you do need several different sizes. I don't doubt that replacing parts on a modular BP/W is easier, than replacing parts on an integrated BC, and don't have nearly enough experience to argue the point, but am curious as to what parts normally break on a jacket style BC?

Lengthwise, I do have the benefit of being independant, so I make it as long as I need to for me to get a warm and fuzzy about a person's abilities. Generally a few pool sessions and a few open water sessions with some classroom work in there also.

As for fit. A BP/W only has one piece of webbing that has to be adjusted and it isn't cut to fit a persons frame. With the jacket-style BCs there is always someone who just has that strange body shape where the BC that will fit them one way won't fit another, or you have 10 BCs and everyone who shows up is an extra small, or some stupid thing like that. It really is, I think, easier to get someone properly fitted into a generic BP/W than it is to do so in a generic jacket.

Parts. Off the top of my head the most common things to break are the inflator or inflator hose, the buckles, and the air bladders. Now, the inflator and hose, you just have to kind of live with. All styles have that. The BP/W doesn't have 97 plastic buckles on it so that elimitates that problem. And the bladder, well if that leaks on a jacket, you have to replace the whole thing. If you spring a leak on a wing, you just replace the wing. Also, I should note that I've never had a wing spring a leak. I don't know why that is, maybe I'm just lucky. But I've had several jackets just wear out and stop holding air.

Never doubt people's stupidity. For proof of it, their stupidity, just do a Google search on the Darwin awards, or speak to people who have been instructing for quite some time. In addition, it's not only stupidity I worry about, but panic and being overwhelmed. It only takes a minute of stupidity to suffer a lifetime of death.

Oh trust me, I know. I've been in an instructor in various things long enough to have seen people do some really, really stupid things. But I don't base my choices on what gear to use upon what the dumbest person I have in a class is going to do to kill themselves with it.

 

[halocline]

I still have not seen a single compelling arguement as to why a BP/W should not be used in a basic OW course.

It's the "life preserver vs dive gear" argument. Jacket style BCs more resemble life jackets, and they do a better job of keeping those brand new diving students upright on the surface. They're also easier to get out of in the water, although not by much IMO, and that can be easily overcome just by having a quick release on the harness.

Notice I didn't say that jackets are "better" for diving or even learning to dive; personally I think BCs ought to be designed and purchased for diving, not floating. But you asked for a reason why they're thought to be appropriate for OW classes.

 

[Nemrod]

I guess my root question is, "What, specifically, precludes the BP/Wing unit from being considered a "recreational" BC?"

the K

I think it is the same thing now that it was in 1978 when I began using "wing" type BCs on the then plastic plates called backpacks then. They (mostly PadI trained dive boats, shops and instructors) claimed that the wing is unsafe because it will not float you head up and back for a clear airway as many BCs are designed to do primary and the BC function is secondary. Most BC jackets and even the semi back inflate are really lifejackets FIRST. I was told wings (called back BCs then) were unsafe and that I could not use them on their trip-boat-whatever. They also did not allow any fixed weights such as what we call trim weights now. During that time all weight must be ditchable. Things have changed more to my way of thinking. Trim weights are common even in jacket BCs. The modern wing/BP is designed first and formost to perform as a bouyancy compensator and has no lifejacket function at all. I think this is the hang up especially with instructors who got their fins during the 80s and early 90s before the current "tech" and tech wannabee boom. There may be some rational for new divers who are poor swimmers to use the life jacket type BC just in case they have a problem. No wing I have ever had will reliably float me head up and back. The old horsecollar type would and the "Stabilizing Jacket" type will as will most of the current jacket types.

Wings go back into the 70s but did not go mainstream (if in fact they have now--outside of scubaboard you rarely see a wing/BP) because they were not good lifejackets for the non swimmers that PadI was trying to recruit:

The horsecollar ruled the roost because it was a "safety" design and the wing you see here is from the late 70s and early 80s:

Early 80s SeaTec wing, I bought it in about 84 after the SeaPro wing I bought in 78 punctured:

My wife in about 1984 in her then new life jacket BC and her in my Dacor in about 79:

The old SeaTec still works, two years ago, works with small twins as well:

Me in a modern wing/BP last spring:

Me sometime around 80 in my then well worn Dacor SeaChute horsecollar--then:

Now being restored to full fucntion, I am making a new bladder set myself:

Brand new horsecolar, the first wings actually evolved from people back mounting these, especially the type with zipper fronts:

Early weighted plate:

Some of my first gear circa late 60s:

My first "BC" circa 1965, imagine this back mounted and cut the oral tube off and put a larger hose--yep:

So, wings are not new, they are still not fully accepted because they are fairly poor lifejackets. This is compounded due to the FACT that most divers today and most instructors today cannot swim and thus subconciously desire a lifejacket--not a wing.

The wing is the thing--lol--the wing makes you horizontal, the jacket makes you vertical, good underwater, not so good on the surface for nonswimming students and instructors.

Of course, you don't need a BC if you are a water person:

Last summer, me in OxyMach V and Freedom Plate, her in old reliable--yes--she has a new BC but likes the old one better--what can I say. Yep, me, 42 years as an active diver, her, 28 years:

The wing is the thing.

N

 

[Nick_W]

It's the "life preserver vs dive gear" argument. Jacket style BCs more resemble life jackets, and they do a better job of keeping those brand new diving students upright on the surface. They're also easier to get out of in the water, although not by much IMO, and that can be easily overcome just by having a quick release on the harness.

Notice I didn't say that jackets are "better" for diving or even learning to dive; personally I think BCs ought to be designed and purchased for diving, not floating. But you asked for a reason why they're thought to be appropriate for OW classes.

Its a reason, I've heard it before, and as you seem to agree, not a very good one. As Nemrod points out, there seems to be a certain group who wants people who aren't comfortable in the water to learn to dive. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, so I don't buy into the life jacket reasoning.


Nemrod, awesome pictures! That is some sweet gear you've got there. I'm not a huge fan of the horsecollars, but I am currently trying really hard to talk my wife into letting me buy a vintage double hose (I'm thinking Aquamaster). She seems to think I already have enough toys.