The General Angst Over the PADI eLearning Program

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Thal, I reported what I was told. It squares with what the original poster said (I think).
I think it fair to say that Mike, "embellished" a bit. It did not "square" at all.
It is perfectly understandable that Drew would be PADI's "best salesman". After all, he is the President of that for-profit corporation and failing to be the best salesman would, even in your opinion, make him a little less prepared for his job (which is leading PADI).

This argument will never be settled. Data can roll from both sides. But, to get back to the point of this original thread......the PADI eLearning program HAS NOTHING to do with the dumbing down of scuba education. It is, by inception and by design, another way to deliver academic study materials to support a PADI Open Water Diver scuba class. Thinking that the class is a bad one doesn't change what it is....another way to deliver academic materials.

Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment
I've not gone thorough it, so I really can't judge beyond my personal view that the current PADI (and for that matter most agency) academics have been "dumbed down," so unless the eLearning is a great jump forward in the reestablishment of academic quality in diver training, then it is as you describe: "another way to deliver academic materials," nothing more, nothing less, but still (as I see it) inadequate. But that is, as you point out, a different discussion.
 
I think it fair to say that Mike, "embellished" a bit. It did not "square" at all.
I've not gone thorough it, so I really can't judge beyond my personal view that the current PADI (and for that matter most agency) academics have been "dumbed down," so unless the eLearning is a great jump forward in the reestablishment of academic quality in diver training, then it is as you describe: "another way to deliver academic materials," nothing more, nothing less, but still (as I see it) inadequate. But that is, as you point out, a different discussion.

You know, when you and I talk here (we don't do it often) we talk about two completely different divers. You talk about preparing a scientific diver and I talk about teaching the typical recreational diver. The two are not the same. I don't know that I have ever had anyone come in my store and say "I want to be a scientific research diver". That being said, if one were to come in with that request, I would have NO QUESTION about a class offered by Dive Sports as being a perfect start to such a diving endeavor. A start.

We shouldn't confuse the typical recreational vacation diver with the more avid divers who use diving as a tool in other pursuits or who spend a majority of their working and pleasure life under water. As I said earlier, the two are not the same.

PADI (and Dive Sports) delivers the product that MOST want when they decide to do recreational diving. The largest majority of people, when presented with an open water class of long duration, would decline. Remember, diving in only ONE of their pursuits. Now, you are not going to agree that what is offered is enough, but that is all and large, unimportant. They are getting what they want. Those that want more typically continue through other courses of continuing education in diving, EACH which gives them opportunities to dive with the professional instructors who teach for me. That, alone, is good for them and sharpens their skills. Again, you will probably disagree that exposure to my instructors can come of no benefit. Again, that doesn't matter.

There is good and there is bad. Agency has little, if nothing, to do with it. My instructors would teach diving as they teach it, no matter what card was provided in the end. I assume most would.

Phil Ellis
Discount Scuba Gear at DiveSports.com - Buy Scuba Diving Equipment & Snorkeling Equipment
 
You know, when you and I talk here (we don't do it often) we talk about two completely different divers. You talk about preparing a scientific diver and I talk about teaching the typical recreational diver. The two are not the same. I don't know that I have ever had anyone come in my store and say "I want to be a scientific research diver". That being said, if one were to come in with that request, I would have NO QUESTION about a class offered by Dive Sports as being a perfect start to such a diving endeavor. A start.
Maybe Dive Sports would be different, but every previously trained diver (with one or two exceptions) that we’ve had enter the program took longer to train that a non-diver. I (as a previously trained and rather skilled diver) had that same problem. Click here: [google]"Thal's Dive Stories"[/google] and click on the first entry. Read seven paragraphs starting on paragraph four.

We shouldn't confuse the typical recreational vacation diver with the more avid divers who use diving as a tool in other pursuits or who spend a majority of their working and pleasure life under water. As I said earlier, the two are not the same.
Then let’s get the agencies to stop pretending that they are. How about restricted certifications that require diving with leadership personnel? How about professionalizing the leadership personnel? How about stopping with the pretense of, “how the world learns to dive?” How about insisting on an end to all the other claptrap and pretense? The diving industry insists on lying to people about what they are going to be trained to do and then restricting them in the fine print. It sort of like if the ski industry told everyone one that they were ready for the expert trails right off the bunny slope.

PADI (and Dive Sports) delivers the product that MOST want when they decide to do recreational diving. The largest majority of people, when presented with an open water class of long duration, would decline. Remember, diving in only ONE of their pursuits. Now, you are not going to agree that what is offered is enough, but that is all and large, unimportant. They are getting what they want. Those that want more typically continue through other courses of continuing education in diving, EACH which gives them opportunities to dive with the professional instructors who teach for me. That, alone, is good for them and sharpens their skills. Again, you will probably disagree that exposure to my instructors can come of no benefit. Again, that doesn't matter.
I disagree with your basic assumption. I don’t think that he public “wants” shorter classes. I do think that he public has been hoodwinked on the idea in a self serving and often deceitful fashion (e.g., the depauperization of accepted normal course names and the redefinition of words such as “mastery.&#8221:wink: But even that is not really my real concern. If PADI stayed the hell out of the institutions of higher learning, I’d sit back and say, yeah … “it’s a shame what’s happening, but that’s someone else’s problem.”

There is good and there is bad. Agency has little, if nothing, to do with it. My instructors would teach diving as they teach it, no matter what card was provided in the end. I assume most would.
There’s that old saw again. But it simply is not true. People rise to the challenges that are offered. In some cases people who can’t cut it fall by the wayside. But if people do not face the challenge they can not rise to it and they never learn those lessons. That’s why the diver with 1000 dives in the same location is rarely as good a diver as one with an order of magnitude less dives in many different environments. In my experience Instructors who do not lecture never really master the material, in my experience Instructors who are given a course outline and a script and a set of training aids never reach the level of Instructors who design their own courses and aids. The same holds in the pool and in open water. I really doubt that if faced with honest information the actual choice the public would make the choice for the “dried out hamburger” as you seem to think they would. If they would why does PADI have keep bending the truth? You may see that bending as “good marketing,” but I see it lying.

This is not an agency thing, agencies are, to me, just tools … the are not churches, they are not countries, they are not allegiances , they are tools. I object more strenuously to PADI because they are the biggest offender in this matter and their program has become so restrictive that it is of no use to me. I‘m a little easier on NAUI because I (and others like me) can, continue to run our courses that find their origins in the course that was taught at Scripps in 1952 and certify divers with a “normal“ credential without compromising their standards.
 
You know, it is pretty amazing what we STATE AS FACT because we have some reason for wanting to BELIEVE IT IS FACT. I expect you made the statement above without any corporate indication that it was correct.

That would be incorrect. PADI's own member forums, which in recent years sound like Amway presentations, from the "Essential Change" program on, have reinforced this philosophy. For instance, the quote at the beginning of the "Essential Change" materials from a PADI VP - "today's consumer wants immediate gratification, and we're going to give it to them."

The presentation of e-learning made it clear it was to overcome the immediate gratification market's preferences, just like most of their changes in recent years have been about reducing every commitment or burden in dive training (except, of course, the financial one.)
 
You know, when you and I talk here (we don't do it often) we talk about two completely different divers. You talk about preparing a scientific diver and I talk about teaching the typical recreational diver.....
We shouldn't confuse the typical recreational vacation diver with the more avid divers who use diving as a tool in other pursuits or who spend a majority of their working and pleasure life under water. As I said earlier, the two are not the same.

Because the label of "recreational diver" and a frivolous reason for diving somehow confer a magical spell of protection from the various ways diving can harm/kill a person?

When a "recreational" diver panics, or screws up, is he any less dead than a pro, tech, or scientific diver?

I am constantly astounded by this distinction without a difference and the assumption that a reduced level of commitment somehow invokes the hand of God to protect a diver from all harm.

PADI (and Dive Sports) delivers the product that MOST want when they decide to do recreational diving.

And that's all that matters? The tobacco companies deliver what their customers want. Americans are dying in Iraq partially because the Hummer division of GM delivers what their customers want. Market economics is an amazing phenomenon, but it's morally neutral, and Adam Smith's theories assumed a far more informed consumer than the average person seeking entry level dive training.

The largest majority of people, when presented with an open water class of long duration, would decline.

And that's a problem only to a mercenary who sees diving only as a means to make money.

Remember, diving in only ONE of their pursuits.

Which means you're pursuing a market that will dive one, two times in their life, getting their "experience ticket" punched so they can say "been there, done that" when the subject comes up in the local meet market bar, who will never buy gear, and thus the mercenarism is focused on short term gain and not the long term health of the industry.

They are getting what they want.

Just like smokers, and suburbanites burning ten gallons of gas to drive their blingmobile to the local grocer, and guys like Eliot Spitzer at the Mayflower.

EACH which gives them opportunities to dive with the professional instructors who teach for me. That, alone, is good for them and sharpens their skills.

Actually, it's been my observation that continual diving with professional supervision after certification tends to foster a sense of dependency and delays taking responsibility for oneself. Why else would so many tropical charters no longer trust customers to assemble their own equipment?

There is good and there is bad. Agency has little, if nothing, to do with it.

Some agencies encourage more rigor, some actively discourage it, because, as you say, it's not what the target market wants.
 
The continuation of the argument that PADI is the root of all evil in scuba completely misses the point that more stores, instructors, and CONSUMERS choose PADI than any other certification agency. After all of these years, if all of these people had been wrong, you would think that PADI would be seeing a SERIOUS reversal of fortunes.


So, financial success is moral justification? I bet RJR Reynolds would LOVE to have you on their PR staff. Very often such success is just proof that P.T. Barnum was right. No one ever went broke for underestimating the taste, intelligence, or judgement of the average consumer. Half our economy is built on exploiting the least common denominator.
 
And that's a problem only to a mercenary who sees diving only as a means to make money.
pretty true.

PADI just pulled the five star resort rating from a friend of mine, a Master PADI Instructor who I think teaches the best OW, the best rescue course here. He is the ONLY guy who bought a defibrillator for his boat, etc, etc The reason? They won't "say" but many of us think it is because other operators asked them to, and it was a bottom line money lobby.

PADI is losing clout, maybe not cash. I don't really want anything to do with PADI.

Here is the page he claims they requested he remove:

Scuba Diving Hawaii with AAA Diving of Honolulu, Oahu

On the home page he refers to SB..I had nothing to do with any of this, it's old news at this point. Let's just say, I've seen all I need to see.

Half our economy is built on exploiting the least common denominator.
Yea, just like the sub-prime mortgages.
 
When I first heard about the PADI eLearning program last year, I expected that there would be considerable knashing of teeth and ringing of hands.....but I never expected that amount I currently see. Again, another demonstration of our industries lack of understanding about the internet, the online world, and the new dive consumer of the future.

I have had the great fortune to be on an inside track on eLearning as it has been developed. I can't imagine a more professional, well-developed approach to a teaching subject. From both the business side (purchasing eLearning, distribution of income, etc) and the consumer side (improvement in the teaching methods, recognition of how the consumer prefers to learn), this is a first class program. Clearly on the quality level with learn-online programs used by the major universities in the United States.

I would like to ask a simple question of both consumers and industry professionals.....What is it that REALLY concerns you about PADI eLearning?

Phil Ellis

Not a one! One size like all in life doesn't always fit! I can see how it is just another learning tool just like a new course book? I don't understand what the difference would be between this program and a referral? So you go to a class and the instructor gives you a reading assignment, what difference if it's on the internet, video, or a manual? As long as they get the concept of the basics and do their water work I don't see why so many get their skirt blown up?

Diving is not rocket science or down hill Diamond Hill stuff as long as the student understands the basics! OWC is just the beginning or the bunny hill and is safe than most bunny hills! I think it is an evolving technology application and you will always have those who fear being replaced by a computer! Cool your rockets! It's just another tool and why shouldn't we have all the tools? It can be used to overcome common logistical problems like distance and time! Some just don't except change!

Diving is the difference between having a C-Card and being a diver! Nothing replaces experience and the modular concept is just one more tool! Some will never move beyond OWC or an occasional rec diver, but if that first taste inspires them to become active divers the process is there to make them as good as they want to be!

As so called professionals I can't believe how unprofessional so many are whining about "all that is wrong" and a "glass that is half empty"! So many have lost perspective and see trouble where non exists! Most deaths are not OWC they are people males in their early 50's that are not in good health and have cascading problems leading to panic and excursion bring on heart attack and drowning! That is not what you're talking about here, you're finding monsters in the closet, you just need more anti-oxidants!
 
BTW capitalism will weed out the weak!
 
Er, PB that's "weak," in case you don't know, "week" is a period of time ... between six and eight days!!!!!!! Just out of curiosity ... are you dyslexic?????????
 
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