Is it safe to go there?

What safety decisions do you consider for non-US trips?


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Doc

Was RoatanMan
Rest in Peace
Scuba Instructor
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Location
Chicago & O'Hare heading thru TSA 5x per year
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An often asked question.

When we decide to leave the comfort and safety of our homes, when we make the conscious decision to go exploring.... since cavemen ventured out, they must have asked~ will I be safe?

I post this because, sooner or later, somebody was going to. I post this first~ hoping to couch it in a larger discussion of safety when we do leave our homes, when we do board a plane and fly off to exotic destinations so that we may return and have great stories to tell around the water cooler.

The story and premise:

TEGUCIGALPA, HONDURAS
Zip-line accident in jungle kills American visitor 03/21/08

An American woman fell 65 feet to her death during a zip-line ride through the jungle on the Caribbean island of Roatan, police said yesterday.

The visitor, 44, was riding along a steel wire hung between trees in the jungle when a harness holding her apparently broke Tuesday, Honduran police said in a news release. She had arrived in Roatan a week ago from Texas, said police, who did not identify her hometown or state. Authorities said they are investigating the cause of the fall.


Again, don't misunderstand. All of these zip line attractions, in almost every country, are the same. They are not subject to any regulation, they are not held to any standard. I am not condemning Roatan's array of tours- for they look just like every other tropical nation's offerings. I would have done them four years ago when they opened if but not for the fact of that skinny Honduran guy at the end trying to slow down my 280 lbs of American bulk at the end.

Every time we leave our homes the risk of personal injury increases. I read a recent thread that wailed about the condition of various liveaboards. One of the key pieces left out of that discussion was that the one ship that was the focus of the derision sailed under an American flagging. That, in and of itself, was a badge of acceptance- that this ship had yearly passed the most stringent standards before it sets sail. This or that may have "looked bad", but was the ship structurally sound. More than likely, sure it was. But- to the untrained eye?

We put our kids on Carnival rides- they too are regulated by state standards. (google amusement ride rules). If you ride a ski lift in Western Europe or North America, you are on a device that was designed and built with very specific criteria and materials. I am certain that the jungle canopy zip lines are held to no such standards.

Many folks come to the Caribbean Islands and rent scooters and jeeps. Toss in a day bag and laugh your way around the islands. Sounds like a good time until you factor in poor road conditions, drainage issues, local driving practices, and the lack of hospitals or trauma centers. Not to mention the poor condition of most all the vehicles. Is the risk worth the gratification~ or would you be better off hiring a driver?

I have seen visitors have negative interactions with authorities all over the world. Parking Cops in Moscow to Airline Gate attendants in Sri Lanka... not to mention the doofusses that "get into it" with uniformed and armed personnel. The Constitutional Protections that keep a lot of our fellow citizen-boneheads on the street are somewhat lacking in other countries that we visit because of the exotic travel posters.

We see the question all the time, "I'm on a cruise ship and I want the best dive operation and the best diving and..." If you have been around a while, you know that there are the common operators who safely cart the less experienced day-trippers out for a dip and to see the sights, and then there are some of the lesser known operators that take two or three divers out for a backroll into the blue abyss.

Where does desire outstrip competence and awareness of (important vs perceived) physical deficiencies in the operation? How can you know what you don't know?

Everybody want to see the Sharks. Thus begat the Canned Shark Rodeos. Pay your money, bring your camera, see Mr. Grey. Are they all the same? Not by a long shot.

Most will force you to stay in a group, knees on the sand. No flailing of hands, please. I went on one that was locally well regarded in some foreign land. It was all well and good until they hauled the last few of us aboard, and my hand to God- this really happened.... as three of us were waiting to climb the rickety ladder- they slung a gallon of chum astern and delighted the guests with the spectacle of dozens of thrashing fins at the surface. Not many folks aboard understood what had just happened. They had conditioned those sharks to follow the flippers upward where they would get a free meal on the surface. How dumb is that?

With all of the video cameras at all of the Shark dives, it is only a matter of time before we have the FOX Special... When Sharks Attack. Was it all worth the risk?

I can handle most anything that a guest diver can encounter... but can my wife/buddy? I'll be honest and say, "no". And fortunately, she agrees and is delighted to take the more gentle dive sites with the less experienced divers. It works out for us, but how many dive couples figure that out before it's too late? We see it all the time on ski areas riding lifts up the Double Black Diamond runs. Lot of guys standing upright trying to get their now-dissheveled girlfriend down the hill while seated firmly on her $500 one piece powder suit.

I have no easy answers here, but to say... when you go traveling~ You're not in Kansas anymore.

How do you judge what you are presented with? How do you make decisions? I'm talking about everything from picking and island, a dive op, driving, recreational activities, and more... how do you decide?
 
interesting, where is zip line located??......TIA
 
interesting, where is zip line located??......TIA

Kind of irrelevant. You know what I know.

But- I propose a much broader question here.
 
Kind of irrelevant. You know what I know.

But- I propose a much broader question here.

I realize that but I was just curious where/who had set it up---maybe kinda like Antonio & his wife starting the butterfly farm(a private venture maybe or assoc. with a resort??..maybe).....btw, we're selling our house there-we think, ..lol....
 
No I greatly prefer a world in which I am responsible and determine my own level of safety. If I deem something unsafe I won't do it. I don't want some DM deciding he doesn't like the way I dive. I bring my dive buddy of comparable skill - so I don't do instant buddies - as I think that is unsafe. Now if you want to do a shallow easy dive with me first - cool - but I'm not dropping 100+ feet on a wreck with an unknown quantity. However people do it everyday, they shouldn't be subject to my rules of safety, and I shouldn't be subject to theirs.
 
I'm the most worried about large scale issues over which I have no control -- Is the region politically stable? I was in the Ivory Coast two weeks before civil war broke out there, and I don't ever want to go somewhere where the atmosphere is that eerie and unnerving. Nor am I brave enough to go somewhere where there is active fighting. I also don't like places with corrupt officials -- Getting shaken down to leave Abidjan (and only getting through because we had French speakers in the car) was an eye opener. I'm worried about what I've heard about the police outside of Cancun, frankly. No matter how good the diving is somewhere, it's not worth being terrified to get it done. Dive trips are VACATIONS.

I should probably ask more questions about boats than I do -- I haven't asked if they're carrying O2 (although I did of a private boat here in the Sound) or what emergency communication equipment they are carrying, and that's probably pertinent. I have definitely looked askance at deeply corroded steel tanks on Cozumel, but I used them anyway.

The more remote the location, the more difficult it is to check stuff like this out ahead of time and be able to trust that conditions when you get there will be what you were told. Friends did some boating in the Maldives, and the boat they'd seen in pictures turned out to be inoperative when they got there. The small boat they were put on was not seaworthy in the conditions that existed, and they had to BAIL a good part of the time they were on it (this was not a dive boat).

But a lot of this is going to boil down to how risk-averse you are. I learned in the Ivory Coast that I am not an adventurer at heart. I get scared, and I don't plunge into situations that make me nervous. Other people are far more willing to take risks and plow forward, and they probably have some amazing experiences I won't have. They get hurt sometimes, too.
 
My number 1 concern when booking is - why should I go THERE?
Then I consider - is it diving ABOVE my limit?
Next I consider some bigger issues like the political stability of the country, whether there is an ability to get out of country easily, sanitation and shots needed for the location, airline reliability, and safety records noted for area in general.

also, I don't do zip lines or ferris wheels anywhere... I judge them by the people who maintain/operate them, and it usually isn't very favorable. :shakehead:
 
By and large I don't investigate the "riskiness" of a destination unless I am going off the beaten track or to a known trouble spot. I also attempt wherever possible to blend in - to not be an attractive target.

From a personal safety point of view I have more concerns going to some parts of the US than I do going to most of the rest of the world. I felt far more at risk wandering the streets of downtown Philidalphia at 3:AM than I have felt at 3:00 AM anywhere else I have visited outside of the US. Not to pick on Philidalphia, just a place I have wandered the streets at 3:00 AM so I know exactly how safe I felt.

However would not travel to an active war zone or a place where one is likely to break out soon. Countries with active trouble in the news just don't make the list of possible destinations.

Re sub standard equipment, by and large just looking at it will tell me if I trust it. If it looks poorly maintained it probably is and I will pass on the activity. This, however is universal, not just when travelling. Having regulations and inspectors doesn't make it safe. It just creates a minimum standard that you have to meet when you are inspected. I ran a trucking busines when I was very young. Dump trucks get abused and keeping an older one on the road is an exercise in creative maintenance. The only point in the year when it could pass an inspection was just before the annual inspection.

Re sub standard infrastructure you need to factor that in to your behaviour in the area you are visiting. I do accept the risk that the nearest chamber might be many hours or days away. Would I dive "safer"?, probably not as I don't run close to the line anyway.

I have had far more issues entering and passing through the US borders than anywhere else. Not universal by any means as most of the border staff are great, but many are not and my level of concern as I appraoch a US entry point is much higher than anywhere else. I know there is a risk of harassment and delay that I have not found anywhere else. Nowhere else wants my fingerprints to cash a travelers cheque as a bank in Hawaii did.
 
However would not travel to an active war zone or a place where one is likely to break out soon. Countries with active trouble in the news just don't make the list of possible destinations.
Definitely a no-go for me also. Or anywhere Americans were recently detained or kidnapped. I also review the State Dept. warnings for anywhere I go.

Chamber location/availability is lately a concern as I get closer to "GOD" age.

Several websites I've recently visited now provide compressor certification results.
That's one I've never really considered.

I'm more likely to rent vehicles from American co-branded agencies. I feel the maintenance may be required to be at a higher standard.

I also look for locations where at least some English, my HS French or simple Spanish (I live in Arizona) can be a fallback. I'd be very reluctant to go somewhere too remote where all conversation was in the local language.
 
I am happy to go almost anywhere except an active war zone. I live in San Diego (and moved here from Boston)...I maintain that I am less safe on the highway here than I would be almost anywhere else!!! Keep in mind that we tend to intensively research the resort at our destination to make sure it has a good track record, and we also do our best to dress and behave appropriately abroad.

My mom recently asked me not to travel to Egypt (she actually took me to Egypt in the early 80's and recently - at 65 - hiked the backroads of China with a single Chinese-speaking friend, so that should give you an idea of her comfort level with foreign travel) for the time being, however, and I will respect that request.

I have a bit of a unique perspective, maybe - I am 5 years out from breast cancer, was dx'd at 33 and had to have a bunch of surgeries, chemo, the whole 9 yards. I did not go through that to be afraid to get on a plane and see amazing things the whole world over (with a bag full of antimalarials, antibiotics, and souped-up medical insurance, mind). Just something to think about - we are all going to die sometime.
 
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