BSAC on “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” for “out of gas response”

[Sas]

I've never had a reg ripped out of my mouth by an instructor, but I have had it knocked out, kicked out etc, it's really not a big deal for me, my backup regs right there, a non issue. If you can't deal with a reg out of your mouth, you ought not to be technical diving me thinks.

Yea, it's a non issue IMHO...

 

[boulderjohn]

Because many of us do not teach reg take period. My OW students are taught to retain control of their air supply. They donate and do not permit take. Good divers also do not run out of gas or dive with those who do. If they do get low on air they do not panic and blindside their buddy by ripping a reg from them.

Jim, how do you provide training to the unknown people who might be diving in your vicinity and might run out of air? Do you hold a seminar for everyone on the boat before they head out to the dive site?

Even if you are diving with a trained buddy, what do you do if that buddy defies training and reaches for your alternate or even primary? Do you teach your students to "retain control of their air supply" by fighting for that control? Do you advocate coming to fisticuffs if your buddy does not follow protocols in an emergency?

In my technical diving, I am trained to donate the primary, and we train for it regularly.

That is not how most of the world dives, though. I have never been part of a real OOA emergency, but I have been near two and had friends relate their experiences with OOA divers. In 100% of the cases, the OOA diver reached for the buddy's alternate, with or without signaling (alternate take).

I teach my OW students that it does not matter how the donor was trained, it is the OOA diver who determines how the OOA emergency will be handled. I teach them an appropriate approach to whatever that diver may do.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I teach donation of the octo if the divers are not using long hoses. The OOA diver hopefully has been trained to signal and allow the donor to hand him/her the reg. I also have students do air share every session once they learn it and on each checkout dive. I don't like the primary take approach as it implies that it's ok to mug someone for their reg. If someone does grab for the reg they should allow it and immediately go to their octo and get control of the OOA diver. I see someone who is that undisciplined as someone who may also try to bolt for the surface. They need to be ready for that and if it does occur they need to be ready to choose if they will go or stay. My choice is to stay and not risk a rapid ascent. It is also why I over and over say to my students that with a good buddy low on air or OOA is NOT a life threatening situation. It is an inconvenience. One that can be easily dealt with by stopping, thinking, breathing. If it is reinforced enough they get the idea and deal with situations calmly. I would also not dive with someone I thought would be prone to react in that way. Another advantage of longer more comprehensive courses. They reduce the likelihood of those types of actions.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I teach donation of the octo if the divers are not using long hoses. The OOA diver hopefully has been trained to signal and allow the donor to hand him/her the reg. I also have students do air share every session once they learn it and on each checkout dive. I don't like the primary take approach as it implies that it's ok to mug someone for their reg. If someone does grab for the reg they should allow it and immediately go to their octo and get control of the OOA diver. I see someone who is that undisciplined as someone who may also try to bolt for the surface. They need to be ready for that and if it does occur they need to be ready to choose if they will go or stay. My choice is to stay and not risk a rapid ascent. It is also why I over and over say to my students that with a good buddy low on air or OOA is NOT a life threatening situation. It is an inconvenience. One that can be easily dealt with by stopping, thinking, breathing. If it is reinforced enough they get the idea and deal with situations calmly. I would also not dive with someone I thought would be prone to react in that way. Another advantage of longer more comprehensive courses. They reduce the likelihood of those types of actions.

A good buddy shouldn't go OOG unless of a failure.

 

[boulderjohn]

The OOA diver hopefully has been trained to signal and allow the donor to hand him/her the reg.
...
I would also not dive with someone I thought would be prone to react in that way. Another advantage of longer more comprehensive courses. They reduce the likelihood of those types of actions.

A good buddy shouldn't go OOG unless of a failure.

1. It might not be your buddy. It might be someone you have never met who happened to be near you during a dive.

2. As I said, in 100% of the cases I know about, the OOA diver reached for the alternate.

In one of the two cases I was near, the OOA diver made a task loading error on the surface. It was the second dive of a 2 tank dive, and she switched tanks and turned on the air without checking the pressure, thus not realizing she had put her BCD on a used tank that she had mistakenly been given as a full tank. She was OOA the minute she hit depth.

It can happen.

When threads like this appear, I have several times posted a vivid description from TDS of the death of a diver with more training than almost any of us will ever have (highly experienced cave diver) who panicked in an OOA situation and nearly killed the donor along with himself. If someone with that level of training and experience can panic and act outside of training, so can a new OW student, no matter how God-like the instruction.

I'm just saying that OOA instruction should prepare students for eventualities and not assume everything will go perfectly.

 

[Druid]

I teach donation of the octo if the divers are not using long hoses. The OOA diver hopefully has been trained to signal and allow the donor to hand him/her the reg.

BSAC teach OOA divers to take the donor's alternate without signalling, and have done so for a few years. Their argument (such as it is) is that this will lead to OOA divers ripping the primary out of a hog-looped diver's mouth and that this is dangerous. Bear in mind that all of the BSAC technical committee dive rebreathers and you can see why they're not keen on people taking the reg out of their mouths so they have decided to ban hog looping & primary donate. Plus I believe there's a fair bit of politics involved, and a deep hatred of DIR/GUE.

I think they're totally wrong, but I'm not a BSAC member so I can't really do anything about it. There are an awful lot of BSAC divers in the UK though, so it could well affect me every time I go to a quarry to practice skills or book a space on a hardboat

 

[Sas]

1. It might not be your buddy. It might be someone you have never met who happened to be near you during a dive.

Yep seen this.

2. As I said, in 100% of the cases I know about, the OOA diver reached for the alternate.

In 100% of the OOA situations I have dealt with (3) the diver calmly asked for a reg from me. One time I gave occy (as I had a standard hose setup) and in latter two (having learned from the first OOA and how little space it gave me) I gave primary (diving long hose + bungee backup).

I'm just saying that OOA instruction should prepare students for eventualities and not assume everything will go perfectly.

Yea exactly. I dive with lots of different people with all kinds of different setups so I can't rely on a standard way of dealing with OOAs as far as donation/taking/etc goes. I always make sure that how I will donate air is discussed (and I say they can grab what is in my mouth if they so choose or they can ask for me to donate, preferably the latter) and how they will donate air to me. Given the various different setups in the people I dive with I really have to go over this.

BSAC teach OOA divers to take the donor's alternate without signalling, and have done so for a few years.

I have not been taught this in my Sports Diver course nor Dive Leader course. I saw a Sports Diver being trained today and this was not taught to him either, it was basically discussed as to what each person should signal and how either would donate. I don't know whether you are correct or not about what is standard, but I have not been taught this in BSAC courses. My main instructor has been a big proponent of personal preference deciding such issues.

I think they're totally wrong, but I'm not a BSAC member so I can't really do anything about it. There are an awful lot of BSAC divers in the UK though, so it could well affect me every time I go to a quarry to practice skills or book a space on a hardboat

Really? How would it affect you given you are not a BSAC member?

 

[burna]

As a relatively low time diver, I can kinda see where BSAC is coming from with their statement. (I think!)

For a less experienced diver it may be possible for them to introduce a problem for themselves by donating their primary if they haven't/don't practice much. (Like I don't!)

But, the problem with the 'standard' configuration as I see it, and the main reason why I switched to a long hose with necklaced alt., is the fact that more often than not the octopus tends to fall out of it holder in the 'safety triangle' which leads to ever more secure ways of containing it there. So much so, that eventually you have to wonder whether anyone could in fact donate it or just grab it in a hurry.

There is no 'standard' way to secure the octopus AFAIK. Some use a plastic clip, some a ball shaped thingie that goes over the mouthpiece, some one that goes inside the mouth piece, some a silicone loop of some sort, others stuff it in a pocket and some fold the hose in half and stuff it through a d-ring on their shoulder harness.

All you know is there might be an alternate somewhere in the 'safety triangle'. If it's your buddy then it shouldn't be much of a problem 'cause you would've sussed this out before the dive, but what if it was another diver like others have mentioned?

 

[Sas]

But, the problem with the 'standard' configuration as I see it, and the main reason why I switched to a long hose with necklaced alt., is

Peer pressure I thought?

 

[burna]

Peer pressure I thought?

Actually, I thought I'd better switch in case you felt compelled to regress!