BSAC on “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” for “out of gas response”

[String]

I have not been taught this in my Sports Diver course nor Dive Leader course. I saw a Sports Diver being trained today and this was not taught to him either, it was basically discussed as to what each person should signal and how either would donate. I don't know whether you are correct or not about what is standard, but I have not been taught this in BSAC courses. My main instructor has been a big proponent of personal preference deciding such issues.

BSAC sheltered water, OS3 and open water OO2,Sports Diver SS1 and dive leader DO6 to name a few.:

Students should act as both donor (initially) and then recipient. Recipient signals out-of-air, takes
donor's AS from stowage, removes own mouthpiece and replaces with donor's AS, recipient and donor
make positive contact by holding shoulder strap or other convenient hand-hold.

The bold is mine, the wording is the same throughout the syllabus. Its been a standard since 2006. Any instructor NOT teaching this is in a clear breach of the standards. Personal preference does not come into it, BSAC make it clear what MUST be taught and allows no scope for personal changes to that syllabus.

Really? How would it affect you given you are not a BSAC member?

Because he would actually not be allowed to dive with some of those people now!

 

[Sas]

BSAC sheltered water, OS3 and open water OO2,Sports Diver SS1 and dive leader DO6 to name a few.:

The bold is mine, the wording is the same throughout the syllabus. Its been a standard since 2006. Any instructor NOT teaching this is in a clear breach of the standards. Personal preference does not come into it, BSAC make it clear what MUST be taught and allows no scope for personal changes to that syllabus.

Those standards include signalling first, no? I was responding to a poster who said it was taught to grab AAS without signalling.

Because he would actually not be allowed to dive with some of those people now!

Why not?

 

[String]

Those standards include signalling first, no? I was responding to a poster who said it was taught to grab AAS without signalling.

Why not?

Signal is recommended but the donor is told not to expect one. The TAKE is the problem with the new ridiculous BSAC ruling, if you "take" from the mouth that becomes primary take not donate. And primary take is banned.

From OS2:

While using the ‘out-of-gas’ signal as a means of starting this exercise, teach for the more real situation of the
recipient taking the donor's AS from it's stowage, not waiting for the donor to remove it and offer it.

If any instructor taught the donor to donate a reg then he is breaking standards, simple as that.

I disagree with pretty much everything BSAC have in this latest edict and policy but on this point can at least see where they're coming from in the instructor manual.

 

[Sas]

Given you are a BSAC instructor, how do you interpret things? I have heard a bunch of different things about what the standards mean for teaching. I.e.

Can students wear hog loop set up during training? If not, what about outside training on club dives?

What is this about others not being allowed to dive with BSAC members? I got lost on that point...

 

[String]

Given you are a BSAC instructor, how do you interpret things? I have heard a bunch of different things about what the standards mean for teaching. I.e.

Standards are standards. The course MUST be taught via the exact methods specified in the manual. There is NO option for changing any of those methods or adding extra content. That has always been the case and the FAQ simply re-stated that.

Can students wear hog loop set up during training?

No, not on entry level, not on higher level, not on tech courses.

If not, what about outside training on club dives?

No hog looped diver can DIVE with an ocean diver grade or they're outside insurance cover. SD and DL and above its "ok" provided you discharge your duty of care (ie insurance cover) AND hold a recognised qualification from outside BSAC showing you can hog loop (currently there are none).

You can see the full lunacy of their rulings here:

AS Training - Frequently Asked Questions - British Sub Aqua Club

What is this about others not being allowed to dive with BSAC members? I got lost on that point...

Insurance reasons, see above. Although its an issue for BSAC members NOT non-bsac members (as non members wont be on that 3rd party insurance anyway)

 

[Sas]

No hog looped diver can DIVE with an ocean diver grade or they're outside insurance cover. SD and DL and above its "ok" provided you discharge your duty of care (ie insurance cover) AND hold a recognised qualification from outside BSAC showing you can hog loop (currently there are none).

Ok, that explains why I was not questioned today when I did some club dives with hog loop setup. Whilst I dived with hog looped reg long before, I have had official training in its use recently (CDAA Deep Cavern). It appears though that the DO has the final say on club dives...

I *highly* doubt that the insurance thing is going to be a big deal and even if it came to a civil suit (it's not like rescuers get sued very often successfully nor charged with manslaughter...) they would have to show that hog looping and primary donate actually caused harm and this is unlikely.

Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen that before. To be honest the only thing that affects me is not being able to use hog loop setup on courses but my training is mostly with other agencies anyway. I really would not care if I had to switch setups for a course. Mostly, I don't think this will affect many people. It is stupid, however.

 

[String]

Ok, that explains why I was not questioned today when I did some club dives with hog loop setup.

No, it just means the DO is unaware of the ruling.

Whilst I dived with hog looped reg long before, I have had official training in its use recently (CDAA Deep Cavern).

Which is not recognised by BSAC (nor is GUE). They have NO recognised hog loop training course recognised. Nobody.

It appears though that the DO has the final say on club dives...

As is always the case, and the dive manager of the day is the one ultimately liable. So in the event a hog loop diver dives with a non hog loop diver or theres an incident HE can be the one that ends up in court.

BSACs insurance is 3rd party liability only, no more.

Pretty much if you dive hog loop and are a BSAC member, diving with another BSAC member you are discharging your duty of care (ie the protection offered by the insurance) and in the event of an incident are going to be completely on your own regarding costs, lawyers and so on. The dive marshall (and/or DO) if they knowingly permitted it would also be.

You are not allowed to dive with Ocean divers AT ALL (so that includes SD trainees) even after they've qualified, you cant teach any lessons or dive with an SD or higher on "experience dives" whatever that means either.

BSAC has very little or no quality control, has very poor communication and as a result most rulings,standards and so on never get to the DOs, clubs or enforced properly. That's probably why there is no question on its use, people dont know the current policy. The new "clarification"and FAQ for example was put on the web site quietly and 1 post only on its internet forum, no email to clubs, DOs, officers, instructors or anyone, just 1 post to a document on 1 website hidden on an online forum.

The main thing is going to be are you relying on BSACs own insurance? If so, you cant hog loop. If you have your own 3rd party insurance you might be OK. Although if there was an incident where PD went wrong and a BSAC member was hurt you may have to justify why you used a method not taught, recognised and in fact banned by the injured party and did that contribute to the accident.

 

[Sas]

No, it just means the DO is unaware of the ruling.

What does this mean then-->

"It is for the properly appointed dive manager to decide who dives on BSAC branch and other dives. In making this decision dive managers should bear in mind, amongst other considerations, the site, the qualifications of the divers the policy advice and guidance available. The risks dive managers expose themselves to personally, if operating outside of these broad limits, are considerable and may lead to successful action in negligence should an incident occur."

But actually I misspoke before, it was not an 'official' club dive day, just a bunch of us diving who happened to be in BSAC. I really doubt that I am going to be asked not to use my hog loop set up on club dives but if so, well I like my club a lot and would just change over for the day. *shrug*

Which is not recognised by BSAC (nor is GUE). They have NO recognised hog loop training course recognised. Nobody.

It did not discuss 'hog loop training course'. It stated:

"BSAC advises that divers holding recognised qualifications utilising techniques that differ from the BSAC Diver Training Programme may dive on branch, regional or expedition dives provided they meet their duty of care by fully and clearly explaining to their buddy what the particular technique entails."

So basically, I read it as if you have learned in a course that is recognised by BSAC, a different technique such as hog loop, you're alright. For interest's sake, do you have a list of recognised agencies and their courses from BSAC?

As is always the case, and the dive manager of the day is the one ultimately liable. So in the event a hog loop diver dives with a non hog loop diver or theres an incident HE can be the one that ends up in court.

I highly doubt that this is going to be a common event. And there are many other reasons besides hog looping that may be more relevant. As I said before, the courts would have to be shown that the difference in setups contributed to the harm.

Pretty much if you dive hog loop and are a BSAC member, diving with another BSAC member you are discharging your duty of care (ie the protection offered by the insurance) and in the event of an incident are going to be completely on your own regarding costs, lawyers and so on. The dive marshall (and/or DO) if they knowingly permitted it would also be.

So, just like all the dives I do with non-BSAC members (the majority). I'm ok with this.

You are not allowed to dive with Ocean divers AT ALL (so that includes SD trainees) even after they've qualified, you cant teach any lessons or dive with an SD or higher on "experience dives" whatever that means either.

Where does it state this? And basically, I can dive with whoever I want, as I see it, I just might not be covered by insurance....

BSAC has very little or no quality control, has very poor communication and as a result most rulings,standards and so on never get to the DOs, clubs or enforced properly. That's probably why there is no question on its use, people dont know the current policy. The new "clarification"and FAQ for example was put on the web site quietly and 1 post only on its internet forum, no email to clubs, DOs, officers, instructors or anyone, just 1 post to a document on 1 website hidden on an online forum.

I guess the status quo will remain then.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult here. But it is confusing as what people are saying BSAC said, doesn't seem to be the case. Or they have been so vague it doesn't seem to be applicable.

 

[String]

What does this mean then-->

"It is for the properly appointed dive manager to decide who dives on BSAC branch and other dives. In making this decision dive managers should bear in mind, amongst other considerations, the site, the qualifications of the divers the policy advice and guidance available. The risks dive managers expose themselves to personally, if operating outside of these broad limits, are considerable and may lead to successful action in negligence should an incident occur."

Basically means if a DM knowingly allows divers to dive together without the proper training or approved equipment and it all goes wrong then he can be liable for it. As hog loop is specifically banned now if a DM allows divers to use it and it goes wrong he has no cover from the agency.

But actually I misspoke before, it was not an 'official' club dive day, just a bunch of us diving who happened to be in BSAC.

There is no concept of "branch dive" or "club dive" and hasnt been for about 8 years. Again if you all have your own insurance and are prepared to fund and fight a legal case to clear your name then theres no problem. Remember though simply defending a case is very costly.

I really doubt that I am going to be asked not to use my hog loop set up on club dives but if so, well I like my club a lot and would just change over for the day. *shrug*

Again, what is a club dive? That concept vanished YEARS ago from BSAC.

"BSAC advises that divers holding recognised qualifications utilising techniques that differ from the BSAC Diver Training Programme may dive on branch, regional or expedition dives provided they meet their duty of care by fully and clearly explaining to their buddy what the particular technique entails."

*recognised qualifications*. Recognised by BSAC, elsewhere on their website they have a list. A very small list. A very vague list.

So basically, I read it as if you have learned in a course that is recognised by BSAC, a different technique such as hog loop, you're alright.

Correct provided you arent with an ocean diver, teaching, taking experience dives. However, BSAC recognise VERY few courses (as i said not even GUE etc are recognised).

For interest's sake, do you have a list of recognised agencies and their courses from BSAC?

http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=10131

I highly doubt that this is going to be a common event. And there are many other reasons besides hog looping that may be more relevant. As I said before, the courts would have to be shown that the difference in setups contributed to the harm.

Not for civil liability you wouldnt - if operating outside an agencies protocols on an agency sanctioned course or dive the insurance will not cover you. As i said, even defending a legal action you might ultimately win is very costly and time consuming.

Yes its a very remote chance of even happening but the fact is now it could whereas previously it could not. BSAC have officially stated hog looping is dangerous and should not be taught or used on sanctioned programmes. You have to prove otherwise. Although you might be able to it isnt going to be fast.

Where does it state this? And basically, I can dive with whoever I want, as I see it, I just might not be covered by insurance....

Correct, for a non leader or instructor that is the case. However, for an instructor its a big issue and for a dive leader who might be asked to lead lesser experienced divers on experienced dives (ie the typical role of a BSAC dive leader) because then they've stated categorically you cant.


Amusingly, you can use a CCR for all of the above because they deem that safe and not confusing at all, only hog looping is evil!

BSAC communication to members is very poor to non existent. This new ruling that introduces new rules and standards was posted on a website with 1 forum link pointing to it. No email to DOs, instructors, branch officers, nothing.
Its the same reason many instructors and many clubs out there are teaching a syllabus 5 or in some cases 15 years out of date and pretty much doing whatever they want. Poor communication and almost no quality control and oversight.

 

[Sas]

Basically means if a DM knowingly allows divers to dive together without the proper training or approved equipment and it all goes wrong then he can be liable for it. As hog loop is specifically banned now if a DM allows divers to use it and it goes wrong he has no cover from the agency.

There is no concept of "branch dive" or "club dive" and hasnt been for about 8 years. Again if you all have your own insurance and are prepared to fund and fight a legal case to clear your name then theres no problem. Remember though simply defending a case is very costly.

Ok fair enough. I was just thinking of more official dives that are organised by the club, rather than just between BSAC members (usually with a mix of BSAC and non BSAC, BSAC is not common here). Though the fact that club dives are more organised, I was not intending it to be something BSAC recommends or relates to insurance or anything like that, just what my club does. If that makes sense?

Correct provided you arent with an ocean diver, teaching, taking experience dives. However, BSAC recognise VERY few courses (as i said not even GUE etc are recognised).

http://www.bsac.com/core/core_picker/download.asp?id=10131

Thanks. I've done SSI AOW + Rescue, with hog loop set up where I did OOAs with my hog loop setup. Those are recognised courses.

Not for civil liability you wouldnt - if operating outside an agencies protocols on an agency sanctioned course or dive the insurance will not cover you. As i said, even defending a legal action you might ultimately win is very costly and time consuming.

There are a lot of things to define in your statement such as the protocols, what constitutes an agency sanctioned course or dive, and so on. I don't think it is a very big concern to be honest.

Yes its a very remote chance of even happening but the fact is now it could whereas previously it could not. BSAC have officially stated hog looping is dangerous and should not be taught or used on sanctioned programmes. You have to prove otherwise. Although you might be able to it isnt going to be fast.

I have a remote chance of losing all my gas with the types of setups I dive. It does not mean I am going to change the setup I use though... as the chance is very remote. I care a lot more about running out of gas too, than I do about being sued. So fair enough if others are concerned, but I am not.

They have said specifically that hog looping is NOT dangerous actually (from the Q+A link).

"Q: BSAC has been quoted as saying the Hog Wrapping technique is dangerous? No – this is not the case. BSAC has allowed certified and competent divers who are trained in the technique to dive on branch dives using the technique since 1998, provided the divers have discharged their ‘Duty of Care’ to their buddy. All techniques have pros and cons. If the technique was considered dangerous then we would have placed on overall ban on the technique, this is not the case."

And you wouldn't have to prove it was not dangerous. It would have to be proved that the hog looping contributed to the harm.

BSAC communication to members is very poor to non existent. This new ruling that introduces new rules and standards was posted on a website with 1 forum link pointing to it. No email to DOs, instructors, branch officers, nothing.
Its the same reason many instructors and many clubs out there are teaching a syllabus 5 or in some cases 15 years out of date and pretty much doing whatever they want. Poor communication and almost no quality control and oversight.

Yea... I gathered that I found this out all via the net.