BSAC on “Hogarthian rigging” and “Primary take” for “out of gas response”

[Sas]

Once you're done with the class and have gotten whatever it is you wanted from it, you can do whatever you want. I'm guessing however that most people tend to follow their training, and in light of that BSAC just picked an poorly worded/implemented method to clarify their protocols.

Sure. The whole thing is dumb but if I find a good instructor, having to change my gear over for a course is no big deal as I can go back to the gear I like. I would hope that by technical level training people would be able to think of what suits their style of diving best, even if it is different to what their instructor says. Most of my instructors have discussed various options with equipment set up and so forth.

 

[Gombessa]

I would hope that by technical level training people would be able to think of what suits their style of diving best, even if it is different to what their instructor says.

Of course, though such divers may will hopefully understand that coming to the same conclusion as the instructor/system, or weighing the merits of standardization in rigorous diving conditions, isn't the same thing as ceasing to think or taking the instructor's word as gospel.

 

[Sas]

Ok I have a question... what is actually the big deal about teaching primary take? On my last course I had my reg taken a bunch by my instructor and we were taught in zero viz (or when we had our masks off also) to take the reg off our buddy as it would be easier to get the reg then. In other situations we would ask for donation. I don't see why this should be stressful to someone undergoing more advanced training?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Because many of us do not teach reg take period. My OW students are taught to retain control of their air supply. They donate and do not permit take. Good divers also do not run out of gas or dive with those who do. If they do get low on air they do not panic and blindside their buddy by ripping a reg from them. BSAC sounds like they are saying that you should expect your buddy have poor gas planning skills, not be able to think thru a problem, and to panic and mug you for your reg. Shame on them. Why would anyone take a class where it seems they think these things are the norm. By the time one gets to tech he/she should be assured that their teammate will not react like this. If not they should not be in a tech class.

 

[Sas]

Because many of us do not teach reg take period. My OW students are taught to retain control of their air supply. They donate and do not permit take. Good divers also do not run out of gas or dive with those who do. If they do get low on air they do not panic and blindside their buddy by ripping a reg from them.

Yes that is ideal but perhaps may not happen in practice. No one is panic proof. Hence why I am asking if it is such a problem to teach primary take.

Also in zero visibility, what methods do you think would be preferable to indicate you need air? It seemed easier to just grab the reg from your buddy's mouth as even with signalling it seems slower for the donator to take out their reg, find their buddy's hand or mouth or whatever to put it into... but I'd be interested to hear other ideas.

Also in a number of classes instructors have taken the reg out of my mouth to simulate OOA. Do you do something like this or what do you do instead to simulate OOA?

BSAC sounds like they are saying that you should expect your buddy have poor gas planning skills, not be able to think thru a problem, and to panic and mug you for your reg. Shame on them. Why would anyone take a class where it seems they think these things are the norm. By the time one gets to tech he/she should be assured that their teammate will not react like this. If not they should not be in a tech class.

Actually I did not get that impression at all from reading the letter. I know it is dumb but I am interested how you got that impression since they seem to be against primary take indicating that it is dangerous.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

You tap the reg in the donors mouth and then take it in 0 vis.

 

[Sas]

You tap the reg in the donors mouth and then take it in 0 vis.

Yea that is what I was taught. Is this different to 'primary take' then? Primary take is just ripping it out of their mouth without warning?

 

[String]

Primary take is just ripping it out of their mouth without warning?

Nope, primary take is approach, give the reg a wiggle to alert the diver THEN take the reg

. I've learned well beyond the requirements and basically lots of extra stuff has been added in.

Which is specifically banned under the new draconian ruling.

 

[Sas]

Nope, primary take is approach, give the reg a wiggle to alert the diver THEN take the reg

Well then I have definitely been taught primary take in zero visibility. And in my OW class + Cavern class I had my reg pulled out by instructors.

Which is specifically banned under the new draconian ruling.

Sure. Again, why is it a big deal? Not BSAC's reasons here, whatever, but I mean why have other people been so quick to say 'no agency teaches it' like it is a bad thing?

I have already had one response from an instructor saying he doesn't teach it full stop but I am interested in reasons why not.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

I've never had a reg ripped out of my mouth by an instructor, but I have had it knocked out, kicked out etc, it's really not a big deal for me, my backup regs right there, a non issue. If you can't deal with a reg out of your mouth, you ought not to be technical diving me thinks.