Are viton o-rings really necessary?

[GrumpyOldGuy]

What is insane is having someone service your completely functional regulator annually and subjecting it to the introduction of service errors and defective parts which can result in fairly serious problems just to prevent your regulator performance from degrading or to prevent the inconvenience of a small leak.

A regulator is a lot more like a kitchen faucet than a passenger airliner. Do you wait for your kitchen faucet to develop a leak before you replace the seals?

If a diver is unwilling to spend $25 for an IP gauge and learn to do frequent inspections of their regulator, along with good care and cleaning; then they may have little choice but to follow the manufacturers' recommendations for keep their LDSs in business. But, the diver does have options.

The irony is many people and manufactures consider annual service the same as inspection as a single issue and put them on the same schedule, yet they are 2 different animals.

The resulting annual cycle is too long between inspections and too short between major service for most, neither is optimal for the diver but easy to teach and profitable for the service provider. +1 for an IP and learning basic inspection.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Time and time again we have learned in industry that it is far easier, safer, and CHEAPER to do preventative maintenance then it is to do reactive maintenance.

You are exactly right.

@Mike Boswell: There's a very good chance that you're overhauling your regs more often than you really need to.

You are exactly right. That is precisely the point.

Every year I take my regs to my LDS and the owner services them. He takes them apart, cleans them up, replaces whatever needs to be replaced, and adjusts everything. He keeps maintenance files, so he knows what has been done and what needs to be done. He has the training, takes the refresher courses, and receives the factory recall notices and service bulletins. He has been doing this for a long, long time, and he has the skills, experience, tools, and knowledge to do the best possible job for my wife and I. It is a pleasure to pay him for his efforts.

 

[fppf]

Hmm, my life does not depend on my kitchen sink.

I have had a reg go from perfect function to full free flow in one dive, period.

Root cause of failure, lubricant dispersion over period of time since last service, aka, waited to long to service. These are pneumatic systems, they need regular service. I find it VERY comical that the same people proposing to stretch service life also propose to use the regulator design that most needs the service. The lubercation on pneumatic piston seals only lasts so long, when its gone, you have issues. The high pressure seats these days are typically the last part to fail, which is all your little IP test is really testing. Also part manufacturing is very constant, the odds of bad parts out of the bag are rare, and as part of service you should inspect the new ones anyway. And finally, if by very rare chance a new part is bad it most likely will fail on the check out dive.

But hey, there is a reason we have a Darwin list

 

[redacted]

Hmm, my life does not depend on my kitchen sink.

I have had a reg go from perfect function to full free flow in one dive, period.

Root cause of failure, lubricant dispersion over period of time since last service, aka, waited to long to service. These are pneumatic systems, they need regular service. I find it VERY comical that the same people proposing to stretch service life also propose to use the regulator design that most needs the service. The lubercation on pneumatic piston seals only lasts so long, when its gone, you have issues. The high pressure seats these days are typically the last part to fail, which is all your little IP test is really testing. Also part manufacturing is very constant, the odds of bad parts out of the bag are rare, and as part of service you should inspect the new ones anyway. And finally, if by very rare chance a new part is bad it most likely will fail on the check out dive.

But hey, there is a reason we have a Darwin list

If you feel that a freeflow is life threatening, you might want to consider golf.

BTW, can you tell me how a failed piston o-ring resulted in a freeflow? Or are you just talking lots of bubbles rather than than a 2nd stage that will not stop flowing?

 

[fppf]

A free flow because I'm to lazzy or cheap, or paranoid is something I refuse to deal with. It adds a needless problem that does not need to happen. You can always paint your self in a corner.

It was not a failed oring, nothing failed per say. It was a lack of lubrication on a dynamic piston oring that cause the HP seat to stick open. To prove it, cleaning and then lubricating just the section in question yielded a fully functional regulator. After testing the failure mode the reg was torn down and rebuilt.

 

[redacted]

A free flow because I'm to lazzy or cheap, or paranoid is something I refuse to deal with. It adds a needless problem that does not need to happen. You can always paint your self in a corner.

It was not a failed oring, nothing failed per say. It was a lack of lubrication on a dynamic piston oring that cause the HP seat to stick open. To prove it, cleaning and then lubricating just the section in question yielded a fully functional regulator. After testing the failure mode the reg was torn down and rebuilt.

Why do I get the feeling that you make $$ by servicing regulators?

That same added friction that might cause an HP seal to not function as easily as it should also causes IP creep and a slight leak before it gets to the point where it totally overpowers a 2nd stage seat. But there can always be the scenario where things go from fine to major failure in the blink of an eye. Some of these situations might be prevented by a timely service. Others could be caused by that very same service. Since the failure is possible in either case, I choose to be prepared for the failure rather than perform unnecessary service in the hope of preventing it. And then I reduce the probability of such a failure ever occurring by thoroughly cleaning my gear and frequent inspections and service only when necessary.

Could a piece of dirt keep an HP seat from sealing properly? I am not entirely comfortable with your failure diagnosis but it is a possibility. How long had that regulator gone without a good inspection or a service?

 

[fppf]

Wow, this is not even worth talking about with you.
I don't think a regulator blowing of a cylinder and smashing you in the back of the head would make any difference. Are you really that short sited? Who the heck is working on your gear that is going to make that gross of an error? Maybe you should not dive at all because the casting shop put an air bubble in the body of your reg. Or maybe the CNC tool was a little dull and the threads are to shallow.

Seriously, you really believe what your saying?

And my failure analysis is spot on, I'm not going into all the details, it would be pointless anyway.

And no, I do not make ANY money anywhere in the dive industry. I work in aerospace on actuators, valves, and regulators. I also spent years working at a company that make pressure transducers in the engineering department and maintaining test equipment including 10,000 PSI gas stands and 100,000 PSI hydraulic stands. So I maybe just have a clue about pressure systems.

 

[redacted]

Wow, this is not even worth talking about with you.
I don't think a regulator blowing of a cylinder and smashing you in the back of the head would make any difference. Are you really that short sited? Who the heck is working on your gear that is going to make that gross of an error? Maybe you should not dive at all because the casting shop put an air bubble in the body of your reg. Or maybe the CNC tool was a little dull and the threads are to shallow.

Seriously, you really believe what your saying?

And my failure analysis is spot on, I'm not going into all the details, it would be pointless anyway.

And no, I do not make ANY money anywhere in the dive industry. I work in aerospace on actuators, valves, and regulators. I also spent years working at a company that make pressure transducers in the engineering department and maintaining test equipment including 10,000 PSI gas stands and 100,000 PSI hydraulic stands. So I maybe just have a clue about pressure systems.

And silly outburst won't have much of an effect either.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@fppf: awap already asked this, but I'll pose it again to you. In the example you cited in which your reg went from "perfect function" to "full free flow" in one dive, how long had it been since the reg was inspected/serviced/overhauled?

I'm also curious about something else. What brand/model regs do you use and how often do you recommend overhauling them?

I'm going to politely request that you deliver your answers with a minimal amount of condescension and arrogance. So far in this thread, you have implied that others are "lazzy" [sic], "cheap," "paranoid," and potential Darwin award nominees. IMO, that's not a constructive way to hold a conversation.

 

[fppf]

I don't make recommendations, those are printed in the manuals. These are also just opinions, nothing more.

The reg in question was about 20 months of heavy use since last service. I normally never go that long. I stick with the 12 months, maybe 18 if I need to stretch it. But it depends on use, if a reg sits a lot it will need service sooner, or if its used a lot it will need service sooner. The reg was inspected about 2 weeks before it failed. I'm not naming brands or models, but it was a balanced diaphragm design, and yes even a balanced diaphragm has a dynamic piston seal in it.

You have read many of my posts, I'm a brash opinionated person. Most people don't care for me until they get to know me. But I'm very good at what I do, and I'm nice enough to give the shirt off my back, even if it is a bit crusty.