"Piece of Paper Syndrome"

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With all due respect - and I both respect and really enjoy the posts you make on SB, so I hope you don't take offense - I must humbly beg to differ. I do agree that we aren't in position of every single fact surrounding the OPs dive, but he's related enough facts to draw a conclusion that his behaviour was ill-advised.
All the existing evidence (what little there is) suggests that is not the case.
Fact: A bloke engaged in a dive beyond his capabilities. He engaged in a trust-me dive using a piece of equipment that is deadly to the untrained.
That's why CCR students never receive their whole kit upon purchase: a crucial piece of equipment, such as the counter-lungs, are sent directly to the instructor, to prevent the student from 'experimenting' with it and dying.
Yet, somehow, miraculously a whole passel of us experimenters somehow survived teaching ourselves, and each other, how to use CCRs before there were instructors to whom to send keys or counterlungs.
Even once trained, they dive knowing that while a carefully-checked and perfectly functioning unit is essential, having one breeds complacency (the 'Pyle Paradox'), and they must assume their rebreather is going to malfunction at any moment.
There are lots of things in the world that need to be treated that way, not just CCRs. Complacency can kill everything from divers to marriages.
Did the OP dive with that assumption, and was he trained to save himself and bail himself out if anything went wrong? No. Because he didn't spend weeks training, drilling and practicing with ain instructor in order to obtain basic familiarity with the unit.
I hate to say it, but if it takes you weeks of training, drilling and practicing with an instructor, your probably not really cut out for the task at hand. When I got my Mk-15 I spend a couple of days disassembling and assembling it. I made three dives in a pool, with a more experienced buddy, using a high ppO2 diluent and then we moved out the ocean.
Fact: The fact he lived is testimony that learning from qualified professionals is not always necessary?! No, it's testimony that he was lucky.
Neither of us have any idea of what, if anything, it means in this case. Occam's razor would suggest that either there was no need for a "professional" instructor, that the mentor he had did an adequate job or that perhaps he leaned nothing and his buddy was good enough to look after them both (something that all of us, as instructors, are known to do from time to time).
Now, I too have encountered remarkable divers without the formal training to undertake the dives they're regularly undertake. One, an acquaintence back home in NY, has a YMCA OW card (which he displays to anyone that asks and even some people that don't with the greatest glee!), but he was/is one of THOSE wreck divers in the Northeast, who participated in expeditions to the Doria and so on. But then - there were precious little C-cards back then, and much of what we know today is thanks to the likes of divers like him (and, very sadly, his dead buddies).
Well, I have a rather different view. Much like him most of what I learned I learned from members of my community who came before ... and not a single one of them has died from diving. It's bad juju to try to extend your conclusions outside of your data set.
I have the utmost awe and respect for divers who dived back when there were precious few rules - dammit, they helped make the rules! - and who literally cobbled together equipment to undertake those dives. But we don't live in that world anymore. We have access to tried-and-true equipment and (if you shop around) experienced, insured instructors to teach us how to use that equipment to plan and execute incident-free dives.
With rather rate exceptions I not trust those, "experienced, insured instructors" to teach anyone I cared anything about to walk across the street.
Mentors help us build on that experience, and for that, they're absolutely invaluable. But there's an important distinction between mentors and instructors.
I don't see much difference ... you've got to be damn careful before you get involved with either one but a good mentor likely has way more teaching and mentoring experience than most instructors, who have an industry half life of about two years and who rarely if ever learn anything outside of the PADI Encyclopedia of Diving.
As to the comments about Mr. Lewis: I must respectfully disagree with you there, too. As one of the most competant and skilled instructor-trainers in the world today,
So am I ... so what?
I would venture that he's eminently qualified to watch folk undertake difficult and dangerous tasks and assess whether they're being undertaken responsibly.
So am I, and so are lots of other people, many who've no interest in having an instructor card, or who's "diving life" (like mine) has little or no direct relationbshhip with so-called "recreational diving."
The consequences of doing otherwise are too great. Firstly, it's the individual's decision whether or not to be in the water with a person they deem as unsafe and putting themselves - and others - at risk. Maybe he's done that on a few occasions and made himself unpopular as a result, who knows? Secondly, scuba is a self-regulating sport, because for the most part, its practitioners dive safely and responsibily. But if enough people have serious accidents and get hurt, scuba as a self-regulating sport may be a thing of the past.
Crap ... scuba is permitted to remain a self regulating sport due to a rather weird and self contradictory phenomena, first because it's pretty damn hard to hurt yourself in the situation that most people dive in (but even so a sizable number seem to scare the bejezus out of themselves and never dive again) and second because the general non-diving public "knows" that it is dangerous as hell and so assumes that anyone in their right mind who takes it up actualy knows the risks.

Thanks for taking the time to correspond.
 
All the existing evidence (what little there is) suggests that is not the case.
Yet, somehow, miraculously a whole passel of us experimenters somehow survived teaching ourselves, and each other, how to use CCRs before there were instructors to whom to send keys or counterlungs.
There are lots of things in the world that need to be treated that way, not just CCRs. Complacency can kill everything from divers to marriages.
I hate to say it, but if it takes you weeks of training, drilling and practicing with an instructor, your probably not really cut out for the task at hand. When I got my Mk-15 I spend a couple of days disassembling and assembling it. I made three dives in a pool, with a more experienced buddy, using a high ppO2 diluent and then we moved out the ocean.
Neither of us have any idea of what, if anything, it means in this case. Occam's razor would suggest that either there was no need for a "professional" instructor, that the mentor he had did an adequate job or that perhaps he leaned nothing and his buddy was good enough to look after them both (something that all of us, as instructors, are known to do from time to time).
Well, I have a rather different view. Much like him most of what I learned I learned from members of my community who came before ... and not a single one of them has died from diving. It's bad juju to try to extend your conclusions outside of your data set.
With rather rate exceptions I not trust those, "experienced, insured instructors" to teach anyone I cared anything about to walk across the street.
I don't see much difference ... you've got to be damn careful before you get involved with either one but a good mentor likely has way more teaching and mentoring experience than most instructors, who have an industry half life of about two years and who rarely if ever learn anything outside of the PADI Encyclopedia of Diving.
So am I ... so what?
So am I, and so are lots of other people, many who've no interest in having an instructor card, or who's "diving life" (like mine) has little or no direct relationbshhip with so-called "recreational diving."
Crap ... scuba is permitted to remain a self regulating sport due to a rather weird and self contradictory phenomena, first because it's pretty damn hard to hurt yourself in the situation that most people dive in (but even so a sizable number seem to scare the bejezus out of themselves and never dive again) and second because the general non-diving public "knows" that it is dangerous as hell and so assumes that anyone in their right mind who takes it up actualy knows the risks.

Thanks for taking the time to correspond.

No worries. I can't say I'm convinced (and you're most certainly not going to agree with me, of course), but I most certainly respect your experience and viewpoint.

Cheers once again.
 
All I'm really trying to say is that you need to be very careful when selecting someone to learn from and that an instructors card is no longer the evidence that it once was that you either know how to dive or how to teach.

If insurance is your worry, most homeowners' liability policies have much higher coverage than diving instructor insurance.
 
Hmmm... has this topic reached this stage yet?
:deadhorse:
 
Did you let them land for you as well... thinking no as that is the difference between trained and untrained.. may want to rethink your point and example.

Really

I am so glad I chose quote reply and expected the poster's comment to apply here, it would have made more sense then... The individual related that he as a jet fighter pilot had on numerous occassions allowed an untrained individual to fly the aircraft in level flight.

You thought wrong. I let them do anything they can that they don't screw up. I also let them fly formation aerobatics. Now, I spent my fair amount of time saying, "I have the aircraft." but I still let them give it a rip.

The majority of the people in today's world are so scared of their own freaking shadow it's pathetic. I and all of my fellow pilots have this experience frequently. After landing commercial airliners from routine approaches, people stop by the door to the cockpit and tell us how much we scared the crap out of them. You know why? Because "the ground got so close before we landed." Ya. Try telling them "that it seems to always work like that, but we're trying new techniques every day to keep it farther away when we touch down." And they say it with such conviction. Like we should know better.

So how does this apply to the piece of paper? Well, in truth, scuba diving is really pretty dang easy. You follow a few simple rules (admittedly, rules that if not followed can kill you), do a little math, stay current on some pretty easy procedures, and if you don't get cocky, you are going to be just fine. But the world in general ain't like that. They don't like to follow rules, they can't do math, and they assume that anything that is foreign to them must be scary and difficult. And if they choose to go learn how to do it, they hold everyone else that doesn't know how to do it, in disdain.

So when someone comes along and burst their little fairy land bubble by doing what they can do without jumping through all the hoops, they get their panties in a wad and start pontificating how those idiots are going to die. I mean, how could they possibly live if they didn't go through all the intense training we did. It's sooooo difficult to scuba dive. You absolutely MUST learn it from someone with a special piece of paper and you absolutely MUST get your own piece of paper.

Like I said, most of the general population is scared of their own shadow and probably needs that security. And I don't advocate doing it any other way. The circumstances that caused me to do it were extraordinary. But going back to the OP's question, is it possible to learn all you need to know and survive from someone without a piece of paper? Absolutely. Should you do it? To keep me safe from the lawyers who actually make those pieces of paper necessary... absolutely not.
 
Just food for thought:

A trust me dive can also include training dives with an instructor since you are trusting that he is as capable as the piece of paper states.

I saw the horse twitch.

So I'll continue. I totally agree with the above statement. I'd put the guy who showed me how to scuba dive (not an instructor) against the guy that certified me and my family any day.
 
The majority of the people in today's world are so scared of their own freaking shadow it's pathetic ...

Herk,

I actually really enjoyed your post because I agree with you 100% in spirit. I also agree that it is possible to be self-taught at any point in diving because any new invention or procedure was developed by someone usually on his or her own. No one certified Cousteau to sneak the Aqualung into the water in Nazi-occupied France. Like you, I'm sick and tired of the "scared of our shadows" and "victimized" society.

While it is possible to forgo qualified instruction and survive, I advocate instruction. Not because I'm an instructor, (Heck, they are practically giving that C-card away in Cracker Jack boxes), but because I am 100% confident that I have a lot to offer and if someone needs to go beyond me, I know exactly where to send that diver and the immense quality and safety of instruction that others will offer.

It is a cop out for divers to simply claim that 99% (or whatever number) of the instructors out there suck, so we don't need them. The Internet and this very forum can introduce a student to a truly world class diver and instructor who is willing to teach as inexpensively as some newbie instructor who graduated from a shake-n-bake program. If I want a flight instructor who was a Blue Angel or astronaut, I can find one online. But, will that person be willing to teach? The Blue Angels of our sport are available and affordable.

Yes, it is possible to learn on one's own or learn safely from a qualified mentor who isn't an instructor, but with the ease of access to top talent in diving, why not take advantage of it?

The man or woman who literally wrote the book on a rebreather's technology and pioneered the unit, is just an E-mail or phone call away.
 
Another thought occurred to me. No one would argue that Jacques Cousteau was capable of being self-taught, or would argue that he couldn't instruct others in the use of scuba and other diving technologies. But, I would bet that if he could come back and see the propulsion skills, gear and teamwork that the DIR and cave communities have refined since his death, he would be incredibly excited. I would also bet he would sign his team up for a GUE-F class. Precision diving looks great on film.
 
I rather doubt that Trace. Cousteau's teams were pros, but in a very different sense. The were pros in terms of getting the job done with what was available on site and at the moment. Sometimes that meant everything including the kitchen sink, other times that meant seemingly inadequate assemblages of junk that required the application of a high level of diverse skill. It really didn't matter if you used a horse collar, a BC a BP/w or none at all ... as long as you got the job done well. In fact, it would be best if you could rise to the same level of performance regardless of what was available. It was never a question of how good can you look with a BP/w, but rather how good can you look regardless, and at a moments notice.
 
Nah, Jacques would be excited and impressed by anything that furthered exploration of the sea. His method of doing things was born out of necessity and the lack of anything existing at the time to get the job done.

But I spent way too many hours as a kid listening to his soothing voice on the NG specials to not know that he would be very very excited by the advances we've made in scuba.
 
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