Atomic B2 or Z2

[coralcruiser]

Need to get a new reg and have gotten good pricing for the B2 and Z2.

The difference in pricing between these regs is about $220 more for the B2.

AM trying to decide if it's really worth the extra $$ just to have a swivel 1st stage.

I will be replacing their hose with my miflex so the fact that the B2 comes with the comfort swivel hose is not a factor.

So my main question is it really worth the extra $$ to have a 1st stage with a swivel and a 2nd with titanium over brass instead of zirconium over brass?

Need to make a decision by tomorrow since they only have 1 left of each.... when they're gone so is the price they gave me.

 

[fdog]

Weeelll...I have several of both the Z2 and the B2.

If pressed, I would point someone to the Z2x. It breathes the same, has the comfort swivel on the second stage, and I honestly haven't seen any difference in durability and corrosion resistance in the zirconium-plated second stage valve assembly (as opposed to titanium).

The swivel on the first stage, also, is a take-it-or-leave-it thing. Some folks love the adaptability. I personally haven't needed it*, as soon as you get the routing correct, there really isn't a need to have it move.

Having actually tried Miflex on the second stage, I can pass on that it is not as effective as the comfort swivel in relieving stress. I can easily position the second (with the swivel) so that it has zero strain on the mouthpiece, something the Miflex will minimize but not remove.

I would submit that the biggest arbiter is the comfort swivel on the 2nd. My first recommendation would be the Z2x, but since that doesn't appear to be on the menu, I'd next suggest the B2.

All the best, James


*: we're talking recreational regs here, not stages, where I love having a first stage swivel...!

 

[Hatul]

Weeelll...I have several of both the Z2 and the B2.

If pressed, I would point someone to the Z2x. It breathes the same, has the comfort swivel on the second stage, and I honestly haven't seen any difference in durability and corrosion resistance in the zirconium-plated second stage valve assembly (as opposed to titanium).

The swivel on the first stage, also, is a take-it-or-leave-it thing. Some folks love the adaptability. I personally haven't needed it*, as soon as you get the routing correct, there really isn't a need to have it move.

Having actually tried Miflex on the second stage, I can pass on that it is not as effective as the comfort swivel in relieving stress. I can easily position the second (with the swivel) so that it has zero strain on the mouthpiece, something the Miflex will minimize but not remove.

I would submit that the biggest arbiter is the comfort swivel on the 2nd. My first recommendation would be the Z2x, but since that doesn't appear to be on the menu, I'd next suggest the B2.

All the best, James


*: we're talking recreational regs here, not stages, where I love having a first stage swivel...!

Can I ask you what is the procedure for going from the comfort swivel hose to the Miflex hose?

Adam

 

[Akimbo]

If all you want is an opinion, in my judgment the answer is none of the Atomic regulators models justify their higher price over the Z2. However, I suspect you were hoping for a little more reasoning than that.

I needed a regulator rated for reliable operation at 300 Bar/4,351 PSI supply pressures and the Atomic and Aqualung/Apex were the only ones I could get the manufacturers to verify — it is clearly in the Atomic literature. Breathing performance-wise, there is no difference in any of the Atomic regulars.

If you look at Atomic's Web site, it is difficult to find any differences between their models beyond the swivels you mentioned and materials. In my view, a first stage swivel is a negative. Any dynamic O-ring seal is inherently less reliable than a static seal. No extra O-ring seal is even better. I do have a much older similar flow-through balanced first stage with a swivel and fail to see the utility. You already discounted the value of the second stage hose swivel. Your personal ergonomic preferences may be different, but if they were that useful all regulators would have them.

Atomic Aquatics Regulator Specifications

Atomic Aquatics Regulator Systems Comparison Chart

As far as materials, the price for lighter weight TX2 would take a very long time to justify in baggage overweight fees. I can’t see why a non-traveling divers would care since it only shifts weight from the regulator to lead.

There is a logical argument for materials with greater salt-water corrosion resistance, but I have not seen enough parts that required replacement due to corrosion on other brands over many years to justify the additional purchase cost. Even first stages used by commercial saturation divers on their bail-out bottles would not pay for themselves based on reduced reliability or maintenance costs.

In the case of the B2, the 24 Grams/.84 Oz (373g - 349g) of weight saved by using Titanium in the second stage body couldn't possibly reduce jaw fatigue enough to matter.

None of this is intended to demean Atomic as their quality control is second to none; their regulators are very intelligently designed, craftsmanship is excellent, consistently have among the very highest simulator tests, and appear to stand by their warranty. We can debate the utility of simulator scores above other regulators, but it has value in the form of reassurance to many people.

Atomic will perform factory service if you do not intend to service the regulator yourself and do not have full confidence in the service your dive shop provides. They are also the only company that I am aware of that puts all of their production regulators though an Ansti breathing machine test cycle, which tests the regulator at multiple depths rather than just on the bench.

Atomic Aquatics Manufacturing - Putting It All Together

 

[fdog]

Can I ask you what is the procedure for going from the comfort swivel hose to the Miflex hose?

Adam

1. Order jam nut from Atomic dealer
2. Remove Comfort swivel from 2nd stage
3. Spin jam nut onto 2nd stage
4. Thread Miflex hose into place
5. Tighten jam nut against hose coupling

<snip>
If you look at Atomic's Web site, it is difficult to find any differences between their models beyond the swivels you mentioned and materials. In my view, a first stage swivel is a negative. Any dynamic O-ring seal is inherently less reliable than a static seal. No extra O-ring seal is even better. I do have a much older similar flow-through balanced first stage with a swivel and fail to see the utility. You already discounted the value of the second stage hose swivel. Your personal ergonomic preferences may be different, but if they were that useful all regulators would have them.

<snip>

I believe the Comfort swivel is patented, which might explain its absence on brands that don't want to pay a royalty.

However it is indeed a personal preference, and one that I've found indispensable during dives of several hours long. I find the comfort enough of an advantage that I have one on my doubles (on the long hose). I've been quizzed before with the specious "extra failure point" argument - this quickly dissolves when it's pointed out that, at the point of rotation, the swivel has an identical o-ring count as a conventional hose.


Regardless, I've been very happy with all my Atomic regs: B2's for recreational, Z2's for tech & stages, and M1's for deco.


All the best, James

 

[Akimbo]

…I believe the Comfort swivel is patented, which might explain its absence on brands that don't want to pay a royalty.

However it is indeed a personal preference, and one that I've found indispensable during dives of several hours long. I find the comfort enough of an advantage that I have one on my doubles (on the long hose). I've been quizzed before with the specious "extra failure point" argument - this quickly dissolves when it's pointed out that, at the point of rotation, the swivel has an identical o-ring count as a conventional hose.

Regardless, I've been very happy with all my Atomic regs: B2's for recreational, Z2's for tech & stages, and M1's for deco…

That is a possibility. There has been several second stage hose swivels marketed over the years, though they may well not have been so well executed as Atomic's. Given this and a lot of other "prior art", I would be surprised if their Patent is so strong that an equally functional variant could not be marketed without infringement. I suspect that most manufacturers don’t think they are loosing sales because of it, so don’t want to add cost to their products (emphasize this is a guess on my part).

In any case, the fact you like it is useful input. To put my view in perspective, I am just as happy with an unbalanced second stage in my mouth all day.

Note to others: Balanced second stages require less force on the valve lever so can use a smaller diameter diaphragm to get the same performance as an unbalanced. The smaller diaphragm allows a smaller housing so the whole assembly typically has less weight and hydrostatic drag.​

Question: In hindsight, would you buy all Z2x now or are there other applications that justify the M1 and B2 in your view?

 

[coralcruiser]

I'm leaning more towards the Z2 because I do like a fixed 1st stage.... but do want to try out the comfort swivel hose now. I can always add it on down the line if I decide I like it better than my miflex.

I've also been thinking about the aqualung legend, mainly due to the ability to have work done it almost anywhere in the world (and all my diving is international) and their ACD system.... but atomic sure makes a great reg and in my 22 years of diving, the only thing that's ever happened is having a hose blow out on me when I turned the air and a tank o-ring blow out at 30 ft below at the beginning of a dive.

 

[coralcruiser]

That is a possibility. There has been several second stage hose swivels marketed over the years, though they may well not have been so well executed as Atomic's. Given this and a lot of other "prior art", I would be surprised if their Patent is so strong that an equally functional variant could not be marketed without infringement. I suspect that most manufacturers don’t think they are loosing sales because of it, so don’t want to add cost to their products (emphasize this is a guess on my part).

In any case, the fact you like it is useful input. To put my view in perspective, I am just as happy with an unbalanced second stage in my mouth all day.

Note to others: Balanced second stages require less force on the valve lever so can use a smaller diameter diaphragm to get the same performance as an unbalanced. The smaller diaphragm allows a smaller housing so the whole assembly typically has less weight and hydrostatic drag.​

Question: In hindsight, would you buy all Z2x now or are there other applications that justify the M1 and B2 in your view?

Atomics now sells a universal hose with the comfort swivel that you can buy for most other 2nds... sells for around $80 -/+

 

[scubafanatic]

I've got an M1 and a T2, both with 1st-stage swivels (and 2nd stage swivels too), and IMHO the 1st-stage swivel was well worth the $, as for my application they provided me hose routing options that I really needed, that would have been impossible with a 'fixed' turret. However, that being said, if you honestly can't see why YOU need a 1st-stage swivel, then you probably don't need it. You might wanna bring your BC to the dive shop, mount it on a tank, put each reg ON the tank, hook everything up JUST LIKE you were going to go diving, route the hoses JUST LIKE you want, and see how it goes, to get a better idea of if you need the 1st-stage swivel.

I'm with James though, I prefer the Atomic swivel hoses for all my primary 2nd-stage hoses (although I'm using MIFLEX hoses pretty much everywhere else) I think the Atomic hoses are less 'floaty', making reg recovery easier, (and less prone to vibrating/flopping about in current)also, the Atomic hoses have a very professional look/finish to them where they join the 2nd-stages, versus the bare/raw metal 'crude' look of plain MIFLEX (or conventional) hoses.

 

[scubafanatic]

Atomics now sells a universal hose with the comfort swivel that you can buy for most other 2nds... sells for around $80 -/+

yeah, I know ! I've installed their universal version on the following regs in my 'fleet':

(2) Apeks XTX 200
(1) Mares Ruby
(1) Mares MR16 Voltrex
(2) Aqualung Titan LX

...and of course, I'm using the Atomic-only version on :
(1) M1
(1) T2